Calif lawsuit claims Sony widescreen TVs defective (1 Viewer)

[Steve Schaffer]

Greg,

"normal" in this context refers specifically to the "gray bar mode" as that's what sony calls it. It does not refer to the regular widescreen mode (that they call "full"), so it's ok to watch 16/9 stuff.

I think we both could agree that with proper calibration and use patterns these crt based sets will suffer no damage-I've owned two of them and that's been my experience.

Do the sets have to ship in torch mode, or could they ship in a more reasonable state and let the stores just put the display models in torch mode, thus protecting the consumer ignorant of proper setup? Sounds like a good idea except that since most owners don't read owner's manuals and a goodly number don't ever touch the picture controls a lot of sets would be returned as defective because the one delivered to the customer isn't in the torch mode they saw in the store.

Even if the sets didn't ship in torch mode, the user could easily crank it up and damage it anyway.

Would such an owner have a case against the mfg simply because the option to crank up the contrast to the point of damaging the set existed in the first place? There are probably those who would argue that they would, so apparently neither a warning or shipping in non-torch mode is sufficient to save us from ourselves.

So we're left with the obvious conclusion that the set must be entirely foolproof and incapable of burn in under any circumstances whatsoever, which means no more crt based rptvs can be sold because if you leave a paused video game on it long enough no matter how dim the thing will eventually burn in even if it takes a year, and we're being absolutist about this.

The logical extension of this is that no automobile capable of actual motion should be sold to the public as if it can move it can be run into a stationary object and be damaged.

 

[GregHC]

I whole heartily agree proper calibration is the key.
I also say the TV should come properly tuned. Then if the consumer untunes the TV by changing the brightness etc beyond the "recommend" limit they then take responsibility for their actions. For example you change the timing on the car, you are risking having your warranty voided.

The way it is now, if you go in and change the service menu, add black matting, etc you risk voiding your warranty.

People say it in the owners manual, but does the owner manual give you the knowledge to properly set up your TV. Example, it clearly says don't watch a bright picture, does the manual or the TV let you know what is too bright? Vague wording like that is useless.

What I would like to see from this lawsuit, is that Sony or any other manufactures, send a certificate for an isf calibration. I don't feel that everyone deserves 3k for a new tv on the chance of burn in, but I do feel manufactures should be held responsible for delivering a good working product.

 

[Steve Schaffer]

Maybe put telltales on the set so a service guy can retrieve how long the set's been run at too high a contrast setting?

The OBDII system on today's cars will record the engine rpm at the time of an engine failure and reveal if the engine was over-revved (by downshifting a manual to 1st instead of 3rd for example), and many GM airbag computers store car speed at the time of airbag deployment.

I like the idea of the ISF "gift certificate". Perhaps with the advent of more digital displays with more predictable color and picture parameters this won't be necessary.

I've often though there should be the possibility of an almost totally automated calibration for crt sets at the end of the assembly line that could at least get a lot closer to the ballpark, though of course changes during break in would not be predictable to a reliable degree on crt based sets.

 

[ChrisWiggles]

Wear is inherent to any phosphor-based set. EVERY set will wear over time if you watch it. Period.

Do you think they should put a big warning on the box saying *WARNING: DO NOT USE THIS TELEVISION OR YOU WILL SUFFER PHOSPHOR WEAR.*

What the heck is that?

Yes it's sleazy that set manufacturers jump through hoops to set up a TV with redpush, and blue grayscales, and torch mode, but that's what people buy. If there is a warning in the manual, then there you go.

Do you think we should sue because bulbs burn out on digital and noone warned us? This suit is without merit.

 

[Andrew_Ballew]

While we are at it, lets sue all RPTV makers. Heck, then we can sue the inventors of CRT technology!! Then we can add every major cable and television network to the list for those annoying little icons and scroll bars! Woohoo!! Think of the possibilities!

The lawsuit is bullsh_t. This is not a case of a company selling a defective product... its simple the nature of the technology as it has existed since its invention.

I do agree though, that the warning in the manual is not enough for today's bloodsucking, sue happy society. There needs to be several warnings of different types in different places.

 

[Mark Larson]

IMHO Sony and other companies should be held accountable for delivering a product with default settings that will greatly accelerate wear on the set.

I also thought of the simple solution - let the stores crank their floor model's brightness up, but leave the out-of-the-box settings at reasonable levels. The consumer is not as dumb as you make them out to be; they'll figure out how to increase brightness, and those controls can come with a warning that increasing brightness and contrast can shorten tube life.

 

[CalvinCarr]

But if they crank the settings down on the sets that are shipped out people will bitch with out ever reading the manual to begin with that their set doesn't look as bright as the one in the store.

 

[Jason Charlton]

Aren't these the same consumers everyone is saying can't (or won't) read a freaking manual? Or learn ANYTHING about a new technology in which they're investing thousands of dollars?

The problem here is that what most people PERCEIVE as a "good" picture is far from what really makes a good picture. And the process of "educating" everyone out there is pointless and futile.

It should not be the responsibility of the manufacturers to educate the consumer on the "proper" use of a television set. The only thing the manufacturers know is that when their displays are set to maximum brightness and contrast, more consumers buy them. Is that Sony's fault? Heck no. Sony is simply providing the product that the consumers demand. Why should they be sued over that?

-Jason

 

[Andrew John]

Hi i own a sony kvhr32m31 direct view tv in nz similar to the us kv34xbr910 tv and after having read the manual for the 50th time their is no mention of adjusting contrast for tv protection or being carefull with viewing mode or the display of static images i even spoke to sony tech support 4 times to query this.Their response was this tv has been protected against all the above and the five year extended warranty would cover burn in or worse if it should occur because i do a lot of xbox gaming and watching sport ie rugby on sat that displays a permanent logo.So this is an important issue for me.In fact in nz most channels display some sort of logo all the time except in an add breakout.

 

[CalvinCarr]

I hate those freaking logo's. Why do they do that?

 

[Kelly Grannell]

Andrew John,

direct view does not have too-bad of a burn-in issue like RPTV. I have yet to encounter direct-view TV with burned-in image (other than at the airports, only on the ones displaying arrival/departure times) in contrast to RPTV.

 

[ChrisWiggles]

Andrew: As mentioned direct views suffer from burn-in far less than projection CRTs, however wear may still be an issue. I just suggest you calibrate your set properly using Avia/DVE, which will involve lowering your white levels to a more appropriate point, and this will minimize risk of wear long-term.

 

[Andrew John]

In reference to chris and kelly i already new this it just seems to me that their is a lot of mistruths and misconceptions about this issue which i had hoped to clear up in the case of direct view.By the way if anyone knows where you can get the avia/DVE test disc's in nz and also a sound pressure level meter it would be greatly appreciated and if your knew approximate costs.

 

[Steve Schaffer]

Deleted redundant post.

If your player will handle ntsc and is region free perhaps you could order AVIA or VE from Amazon.com?

Likewise, I think Radio Shack will sell over the internet, the spl meter you want is cat. # 33-2050, takes a standard 9v battery.

 

[Carlo_M]

I don't think this is frivolous...

I own a Panny PT-47

I had it ISF'd.

I watch at least 50% DVD.

It is not in torch mode (obviously, it was ISF'd and I kept the settings).

I have grey-bar burn in after 2 years. It's still subtle, but I can see it.

I did "everything right" and still got burn in. :frowning:

 

[Allan Jayne]

Proper "ISF'ing" does not guarantee the best protection against uneven screen wear.

There are three criteria for setting the contrast but test disks like Video Essentials only take into account the first two.

1. The TV power supply. (the upright line in the "needle pattern" bends when you advance the contrast, select a setting below where bending is significant.)

2. Overloading the phosphors (thin white lines get a bit fatter and light objects get a bit larger, set contrast below where this happens)

3. Overheating of the phosphors (burn-in). You will have to guess what a safe setting is, but significantly less than the setting suggested by #2 above is a good place to start.

 

[Carlo_M]

Nothing guarantees it, but my set was ISF'd by one of the best (hint, he's here on HTF and Keohi) *and* contrast was set at 2 (out of 61) brightness at 25 (out of 61).

I watch at least 50% DVD movies, and 15% of the time we play vid games in FULL (so no bars).

My point is: I should have been among the least susceptible to burn-in/uneven wear. And yet I have it. So I can imagine those who haven't gone as far as I have (taken it off of torch mode, used VE and AVIA, and ISF'd it) are probably going to experience this on a fairly regular basis.

 

[Dave Miller]

Carlo - I'd be hoping mad if I were you. I think you are further proof that this California guy's lawsuit is not frivolous.

When I bought my Toshiba RPTV several years ago, I almost bought a Mitsubishi RPTV that was a floor model. I'd done lots of research so I could figure out which brands were the best for the money as well as the features I wanted in a TV, but I had NO CLUE about burn in and proper calibration. I cringe to think about how much burn in that floor model might have had in it and I'm sure somebody bought it at some point. It wasn't me, so just I got lucky.

Now, I understand the issue, my RPTV has been professionally ISF'd and I do simple calibrations (Avia) for friends and family. I know we like to make fun of Joe Six Pack around here, but these are not stupid people that I help. And when I tell them about burn in, their first response is always the same "Your kidding, right? Why would the manufacturer ship the TV with all the settings wrong?"

I still think that is a valid question and I have yet to hear a reasonable answer that would allow the manufacturer off the hook in this instance. Contrast has to be set somewhere, why not 55 rather than 95?

If car dealerships waxed their cars on the lot with a substance that initially made the car shinny and moved it off the lot, but eventually ruined the paint job would you be satisfied with the dealership saying "Well, we put a note in the owner's manual that clearly states you should have that stuff removed because eventually it will damage the car if you don't make that adjustment?"

This is a good discussion in this thread, but we (HTF Members) are a skewed audience, very particular, and in search of the perfect picture. The average person is not like that and for the most part, they think they already know what a good picture looks like (torch mode) and that contibutes to the problem as well.

Peace,

DM

 

[Carlo_M]

Absolutely, Dave. If I had all this stuff done to my TV (ISF, AVIA, etc) but watched 90% of my stuff in 4:3 w/ the grey bars, then I'd still "deserve" burn in. But I don't. I would say that between gaming in full-screen stretch (so no bars) and watching DVDs that vary from 1.85 to 2.35 (no side bars in either case), I'd say TV watching is *at most* 40% of the time, maybe even down to like 30% of the time. And I still got it.

Something stinks here, and if that class action extends to other manufacturers, I'll actually seek to be on it.

 

[Andrew John]

Hi i have been away for a while but i have since bought a spl meter from dick smith electronics in NZ and i have got a digital video essentials setup disk from dvdlounge in western springs Auckland NZ the ntsc version he brought it in for me.Now for my problem sony will not release the way to get into the service menu to anyone other than an authorized service dealer or themselves.they have told me that if i get the tv to them they will calibrate it for me for free i don't know how i am meant to do this it takes three people to lift the thing safely the mobile call out people don't really know what they are doing so all i can do is use the basic setup and not the advanced.I will keep this thread posted as i try and fight "City Hall" so to speak.