Babylon 5 newbies? (Richard Biggs - RIP) (1 Viewer)

[Eric C D]

Thanks for saying that Julie. I've said it(Pakmara look like Cthulu) to a few people only to get blank stares.

To those of you discussing Grey 17 - we're trying to keep to only the released DVDs in this discussion. Don't want to even talk about who's still around or not - not that it is an issue on that particular episode, but just in case you're thinking of other comments...

Like the Technomages. See, even a negative spoiler is a spoiler. To know that nothing happens, or that someone doesn't come back, tells you something. But for those wanting lots more technomage info, after you get done with the TV series, there are actually some pretty good books. Unlike a lot of the paperback spinoffs, these have plots set out by JMS, then fleshed out by the author. One of these is a set of three books about the fate of the technomages. I will tell you there are some interesting twists that, even if you don't like the books themselves, make it worthwhile to consider against the larger B5 universe.

enjoy,

Eric

 

[Joshua_W]

The Technomages likely would have played a huge role in Crusade. Much of what was aired, and two of the scripts for unfilmed eps that JMS put up on the now defunct Bookface site, provided a lot of set-up.

If you're really curious about the Technomages, I suggest you pick up the Technomage trilogy of books written by Jeanne Cavelos, released by Del Rey. ("Casting Shadows", "The Passing of the Technomages", and "Invoking Darkness")

These aren't like throwaway Star Trek or Star Wars novels, but actually parts of the saga, based on an outline by JMS himself.

(NOTE: The Technomage Trilogy should only be read after one has viewed the entire Babylon 5 series to avoid spoilers!)

 

[Lars_J]

As a long-time B5 fan I have to chime in on the talk about bad episodes. Others have mentioned it, and I agree: "TKO" is by far the most cringe-inducingly bad B5 episode ever.

But for some bizarre reason, every time I tried to get friends hooked on B5, that episode would be on that week. (either first-run or re-run) I felt cursed. Fortunately I those people were later converted when I showed them the "Chrysalis"/"Points of Departure"/"Revalations" pseudo-3-parter.

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Otherwise it pleases me greatly to read about how B5 newbies are enjoying the show on DVD (and TV). And I agree with others that have said that the show gets better in season 3 and onwards.

Season 2 still contains two episodes that I personally would place in a "top 10 B5 episodes" list ("The Coming of Shadows" and "The Long, Twilight Struggle"), but Season 3 and 4 has a much higher average quality.

 

[Rex Bachmann]

Julie K wrote (post #17):

As a Lovecraft enthusiast, you should be quite intrigued by and I think you will find yourself most pleased with Babylon 5's aliens.

I refer you to "'Who Are You?' and 'What Do You Want?': The BABYLON 5 / STAR TREK Comparison T[hread]", especially the following posts:

(1) post #2: Shadow War : Dominion War (the two franchises' aliens are discussed and contrasted),
(2) post #12: more on the war-arc comparison,
(3) post #21: on, among other topics, the "humanization" of aliens in filmed sf,
and especially, (4) post #37: a comparison of Species #8472 of ST: Voyager and the Nameless ones of Babylon 5: Third Space (with an aside on Lovecraftian influences).

Of course, there are plenty of so-called "spoilers", so these might better be read after Season 3, or even Season 4, episodes, as well, have been viewed.

On the matter of certain episodes ("Comes the Inquisitor", "Grey 17 is Missing", "Infection", "TKO", "Grail"), it has been said, with good justification, that Babylon 5 is at its strongest in its "arc"-stories, and rather weak in most of its non-"arc" stories. I tend to strongly agree. (Of course, some of those named above are semi-arc stories.) Some do improve in one's opinion once one understands their place in the totality of the Babylon 5 story-"arc".

 

[Eric C D]

Woof-da,

Glad to see additional detail from Joshua and Rex. To add to what Joshua said, besides the Technomage trilogy, there is also Centauri (Legions of Fire) and Psi Corp trilogies that I enjoyed. I also remember one of the standalone books being highly recommended. It was written by JMS's significant other, and was about Sinclair. But none of these should not be read until you get through the show.

I'll go take a look at the URLs Rex was talking about, but at a first guess, I'd say any newbies should definitely stay away until after you see Season 4.

[added after reading Rex's URLs]
Yeah, any newbies should stay away from that discussion until after at least season 4 and watching the made-for-TV movie Thirdspace (which you don't want to see until after Season 4 too). Interesting stuff, but also the other posts in that thread are also spoilerific for people who haven't seen the series.

After that, Julie will definitely want to give it a read.

enjoy!

 

[Julie K]

Thanks for the links Rex - I'm looking forward to reading them after Season 4. Even in the first two seasons I'm picking up some definite Lovecraftian influences, even beyond the appearance of the Pakmara, and I'm enjoying it.

I've heard that Thirdspace also has those influences and I certainly hope it will be released on DVD at some point. Anyone know?

 

[Mike Broadman]

No word yet on the unreleased B5 movies, yet.

IMO, they're not as strong as the rest of the series.

I agree that "arc" episodes are stronger, but there are some wonderful stand-alone episodes. Intersections in Real Time is arc, but is stand-alone in "feel." Believers tackles medical ethics with more guts than any sci-fi show. A View From the Gallery, though not a universal favorite, is a neat way of looking at the B5 universe.

 

[Craig P]

"Day of the Dead" is my favorite stand-alone episode.

 

[Paul McElligott]

I love "Passing Through Gethsemene" as a standalone. Very powerful (and great for introducing Catholic friends to the series).

 

[Eric C D]

I'm blown away by some of the fans here - I had to look up some of those references to episodes to see what they were.
S1: Believers
s3: Passing Through Gethsemene
s4: Intersections in Real Time
S5: A View from the Gallery, Day of the Dead

I don't want to post my standalone favorite (and it's by a wide mile), because I'm waiting to see how people react to it first. But btw, Rebo and Zooty rock!

Julie (our stand-in for all newbies and Cthulu groupies )- you probably don't want to read the books until after season 5. The URL discussions are OK after season 4 though.

Mike, I agree that the standalone movies aren't as good as the whole of the series. But I do think they are up there with some of the better standalone episodes, but not as good as my fave. Sometimes a short story gets the point across better than a long.

Well gotta go. BTW, I am really enjoying discussing the show as if it were new again. Didn't get to do enough of that the first time around.

enjoy!

Eric

 

[Mike Monti]

For fans of "Day of the Dead" and of course jusr regular B5 fans I highly recommend the "Day of the Dead: Babylon 5 Script" whis is available from DreamHaven Books it's only 5 bucks and the one I got was signed "Beep Beep". May want to order by phone to make sure but in my experience everything from there is signed. Here's the info...

Gaiman, Neil - Day of the Dead: Babylon 5 Script - Trade Paperback (DreamHaven Books 1998) An annotated edition of the script for the Babylon 5 episode Neil wrote. Includes scenes not included in the televised version, plus Neil's comments on the show and his experiences on the set. Full color wrap-around cover by artist John Berkey. Introduction by J. Michael Straczynski. Published at $12.95, now sale priced. - $5.00

The Direct Link
and their phone number
612-823-6070

By the way also check out DreamHaven Books' regular site out if you like fantasy or speculative fiction as they tend to have lots of nifty and unique stuff.

 

[Mike Monti]

God that looks like a cheesy ad when it's sitting up there all alone. Let it be known that I was replying to a comment on the last page.

There.

 

[Eric C D]

Sure you were Mike.

I think you are just trying to get rich off us fans, your commission on our each $5 (less costs), right?

BTW, I was just checking out the link and I had a deja vu moment I had to check out. Jason Quillan's sig (over in the Buffy thread) includes artwork that looks just like the cover of "The Day I Swapped My Dad For Two Goldfish."

enjoy,

Eric

 

[Holadem]

If you go to Z'ha'dum, you will die.

Last time I posted was on page 2, then this thread got resurrecteed without me :frowning:.

Perhaps some of my disappointment with the finale is that given the thematic material thus far, not to mention the episode names, I was expecting this to be a very dark resolution/cliffhanger to the season, and it didn't play out that way at all. Instead one is left with the feeling that, oh, OK, everything's fine after all.

How come? At the end of that ep, 2 things were firmly established:

1 - The Shawdows, to whom secrecy seems to be paramount (they aren't ready yet), have been revealed - ISN is probably broadcasting that video all over Earth and it's stations.

2 - Earth gov has made an alliance with the Centaury. Additionally, the orwellian nature of the new Earth Gov is now clear, as they now openly supressing dissent (store owner anyone?).

This is significant stuff. Perhaps you did not like the execution, but no way everything is fine when it ends!

As for Kosh's revelation being preditable, perhaps, but after 2 seasons, you should have learnt by now that very little is what it seems on B5.

Did I mention that I absolutely adore this show? It's no surprise that Julie likes it, the concept of the first ones are quite reminicent of you know who. I got hooked on this show thanks to that same concept, but from a different work, Tolkien's. Another characteristic of these works share is that they are the final chapters of something that has been unfolding for ages untold.

The midwinter site is the babylon 5 bible. Their analysis are extremely well written. If you stick to the episode guides, you should be spoiler free - as long as you don't jump ahead obviously.

--
Holadem

 

[Mike Monti]

The only problem with the Midwinter site is that no other show has a info site that good. When I started checking out BtVS (armed with only a faint knowledge that there was some sort of arc and liking the movie) I was disappointed to discover that even the really good sites weren't up to that level of throughness. Honesty, even my old ST:TNG Compendium pales in comparison. Maybe I should print those pages up and keep them in a binder just in case it ever goes down.

Or better yet, Somebody make a book out of em!

I nominate Joe DeMartino. You are hereby fired from your regular job and are now being forced to write a book for the public's greater good. Webcams and blog to be provided shortly.

 

[Holadem]

It's funny, I thougth about starting on that same topic, wopndering if any shows had such thorough websites. I guess not.

About the book idea, back in '96 when I didn't have a computer, I would go to the library and print episode sysnopsis and guides. I had just arrived in the US, and thus had missed most of S3 (I saw S2 finale back home, and landed here when the infamous Grey 17 is missing was airing). So I litterally read most of S3 before I caught most of the re-runs on TNT. I ended up with quite a stack :b. I only got rid of it on my last move (it had survived 2 prior moves).



--
Holadem

 

[Rex Bachmann]

Holadem wrote (post #94):

When Babylon 5 came to an end, Mr. Grimm, the Webmaster (and presumed owner of the site), said he was willing to do a book, if someone made him a deal. I guess no one has made him an offer (that he couldn't refuse).

Z'ha'dum

I have an inexplicable notion that name is lifted from something buried somewhere in the works of Robert E. Howard, but I'm not sure. Anyone know?

 

[Holadem]

Sounds more like Khazad-Dum to me.

--
Holadem

 

[Julie K]

Something else that impressed me happened near the end of Season 2 and shows a logical and plausible way of attacking a planet.

It's no surprise that Julie likes it,

I think the big surprise is that I only now just got into it. Where the hell was I when it first aired?!? One of the big mysteries of the universe, I guess.

 

[David Forbes]

Holadem is correct re: Z'ha'dum/Khazad-dum. Remember (BIG SPOILERS! Don't read until the end of season three!):

Gandalf fights the ancient darkness, falls into a chasm, dies, and is reborn. On Z'ha'dum a certain someone (who shall remain nameless to protect innocents who have yet to see Season Three but who can't resist peeking here) confronts an ancient darkness, falls into a chasm, dies, and is resurrected.