August 19th for that Bob Fosse classic musical... (1 Viewer)

[Ronald Epstein]

Guys,

Just finished watching the R1 DVD this evening.

I am unsure whether I will be going ahead with
a full review or not. It really has nothing to
do with how early my review is going up in advance
of street date (a DAREDEVIL review is already available
3 months early), but rather, the fact that the copy
I watched is a check disc from 2001.

Here lies the problem....

I am unsure if this check disc represents the
quality of the final R1 product. For the most part,
I think it does otherwise I would not have been
sent a copy to look at and comment upon.

There's some issues that I have here with the
DVD transfer. I'll write more about it once I
post a review, but among other things, it seems that
the entire weight of this Dolby surround presentation
entirely rests in the center channel -- that is --
until the very end of chapter 13/start of chapter 14
(Giddeon's hospital party) where the audio suddenly
kicks into a more enveloping surround experience for
the rest of the film. It's almost as if a light
was suddenly switched on after for being dark for
half the film.

Is this an issue with the original film elements?
was this the best that could be done with the original
audio stems? Is this a problem in the check disc?

Before I post a review, I'd love to hear from those
of you that own the Region 2 disc.

I'll probably end up posting a review shortly. All
I can say right now is that the transfer did not
live up to my expectations -- though one must
certainly keep in mind that this film was on the verge
of being destroyed forever. I heard it was in
abysmal condition, partly because of the film stock
and partly because of neglect over the years. If
you keep THAT in mind, this film actually looks
tremendous.

Seems like I already wrote the review here -- but
I'm sure I can spice it up a bit more with some
storyline, pictures, and personal memories.

 

[Jeff_HR]

Thanks for the info Ron. I'm looking forward to the full review.

 

[David Lambert]

Before I post a review, I'd love to hear from those
of you that own the Region 2 disc.

Jeff, are you able to help Ron with that? I'm interested to see how this turns out.

 

[PatrickL]

Ron,

I have the R4 disc and now I'm really confused!

it seems that the entire weight of this Dolby surround presentation
entirely rests in the center channel

I'm stumped by this, but my ignorance about processing sound mixes might be to blame. On my disc there is no mention anywhere of "dolby" or "surround" and only one option for listening to the movie audio, which seems to be traditional stereo (which sounds great and is consistent all the way through the movie). My center speaker doesn't get any action on this movie.

I was very pleased with the video transfer, by the way. I didn't see the demonstraton of the restoration on film, so I only have my many previous viewings of the film (going all the way back to its initial theatrial release) to go on. This *is* the best this film has ever looked to me, and the level of detail and the color is revelatory at times. The opening segments at the Palace Theatre are a good example of what has been done well - the plush red of the seats and the zig zag lines of the light designs on the back wall are rendered more vividly and with more precision than ever.

This isn't a reference quality transfer, and there are some moments that seem less capably restored than others. (The shots of Joe/Fosse falling into the net looks like they lack contrast, and in the "Everything Old Is New Again" number there is an unfortunate moment, just before the bit where Katie mimes typing on Michelle's stomach, where it seems like a couple of frames have jumped out of alignment...I'd actually love to know if this is still the case on the R1) But neither is this one of those drab transfers where you're thankful it's OAR, without dirt and splotches and therefore "the best it's ever looked on video." It's much better than that.

Ron, I'm looking forward to your review!

 

[Ronald Epstein]

This disc is in Dolby surround. See screencap
below:




For review purposes I listened to the soundtrack
with my receiver in normal Dolby Surround mode.

 

[PatrickL]

Ron, I was curious about your comments and popped in my disc earlier. The languages menu on my R4 disc says only "English" and by default has been giving me a stereo mix, but this is probably the same track you have on the R1 check disc. When I bypass the auto-decoding and choose surround, I get what you describe - a track almost entirely based in the center channel.

By the way, I notice Roy Scheider's screen commentary is listed under Languages in your screencap. On my R4 disc, it has its own menu screen with an index, making it easy to bypass the dead space on his track and jump right to when he is speaking. It would be a shame if this isn't the case on the R1.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Patrick,

Let me ask you, as I am really apprehensive
about posting my review....

I was supposed to listen to this track
in surround mode -- yes?

This is what I am basing the audio portion of my
review on, and I just want to be sure that I didn't
misread the fact that this film had an English
Dolby surround track nor did I do the wrong thing
by listening to it in the same mode I listen to
all 5.1 films (default Dolby Digital surround setting).

I know these questions sound silly, but you must
understand that I expected better from this experience.

 

[PatrickL]

Ron,

I'll try but I'm not sure I can be so helpful in providing an answer. I'm not well-versed on the finer points of sound mixes, so I typically let my equipment detect and decode in "auto" mode. I'm 5.1 equipped and all, but this particular R4 disc plays by default in traditional stereo for me, with no center channel data. As I said, it isn't identified on the menu or box as a Dolby surround track, only as English, and the box specs says "stereo" and that's all.

From what I know about this film, it was widely exhibited in mono when it was first released, although there were some showings in stereo. I've always assumed that this meant traditional stereo and not anything more elaborate but I just don't know about this and could be wrong.

Your screencap clearly says "Dolby Surround" so you heard what you were supposed to hear on the R1 disc. Which is the more accurate representation of the stereo version of the film that was initially released - the surround your disc defaults to, or the stereo on mine? I honestly don't know.

 

[Peter Apruzzese]

Just so there's no misunderstanding theatrical sound mixes, a "stereo" theatrical sound mix will always use the left, center, and right speakers (obviously, they may not be used all the time, but you get the idea; it will also use the surrounds if they are part of the mix). As far as I know, no "normal" stereo film ever used only the left and right speakers theatrically. The proper way to listen to a "stereo" film on DVD is to let your processor auto-detect the format, and if it stays 2.0, then you should manually engage Dolby ProLogic. All theatrical stereo films, other than maybe some experimental mixes or concerts, use - at least - the front three speakers. Mono films should always be played back through the center speaker only.

 

[PatrickL]

The proper way to listen to a "stereo" film on DVD is to let your processor auto-detect the format, and if it stays 2.0, then you should manually engage Dolby ProLogic.

There ya go then; thanks Peter.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

I think what happened here is that my amp was
set for the same Dolby Surround setting that I
listen to 5.1 films in. This is what I belive
my Outlaw amp automatically selected as I see no
DPL button on my remote.

Though my review is ready to post, I will re-listen
to the film in Dolby Pro-logic mode to see what sort
of difference I hear.

 

[Peter Apruzzese]

I think that's a good idea, Ron. That way you can be sure you're giving it every possibility of sounding its best. Thanks for taking the time to do it.

Pete

 

[Doug Bull]

Just pray that the upcoming region 1 release of "Hello Dolly" is not the same as the recently released region 4 version.
The region 4 version is extremely soft and looks as if it has been taken from a very tired and washed out print.
While Anamorphic, it is nowhere near as attractive as the earlier Laserdisc.
Visually it is very poor.
It does however contain a really nice sounding 4.0 Dolby Digital Soundtrack.( even allowing for the PAL speedup)

 

[BBbrowd]

Doug, it's funny you should mention the quality of the future DVD of "Hello, Dolly!". I was just watching my dolby digital Laser Disc of "Hello, Dolly" from 1996. The picture quality of the Laser Disc is truly amazing. I'm sitting here thinking "can the DVD be ANY better"? It's by far the best looking Laser Disc I've ever owned. It fools me into thinking that I'm watching a DVD. The sharpness is great, the colors perfect. Just an incredible print. It's deep and rich and highly detailed. I never even knew this film could ever look so good. It's better than any print I've seen of it in any other form.

It is very disappointing to hear that the region 4 DVD release of Dolly does not look as good. That worries me. Hopefully they will at least use the print that was used for this most recent Laser Disc version. I'm really looking forward to the convenience of having Dolly on DVD. I just hope it's not a big let down.

 

[Greg_M]

Chris,

I have the "Dolly!" laserdisc and the picture does look like that of a DVD. As far as the best print, no. FOX recently struck a new Todd-AO print and screened it at the Egyptain last October - the picture was incrediable. One of the best looking films I've ever seen. Only "Patton" in Dimenion 150 looked as good.

Hopefully FOX will use the Todd-AO version for the transfer.

But then again, "Dolly" was first mentioned for release back when "All That Jazz" was first mentioned - 3 YEARS ago. If FOX did a transfer back then and sat on it for 3 years - we'll be out of luck (remember Paramount did this with "Grease" and it DID NOT look so good)

After holding this title back for so long, it would be a slap in the face if FOX didn't give us the Todd-AO version. Of course the Todd-AO transfer would make the wait worth it.

My guess is we'll be out-of-luck come 8/19 unless FOX states differently.

 

[SteveP]

The last Dolby Digital Laser Disc of DOLLY was missing the tints on the opening freeze-frame shot, carried NO Todd-AO credit--and had oblong, rather than round, reel change cue marks--this was mastered from a 35MM source.

I'm hoping the upcoming DVD will be sourced from the 65MM negative.

 

[BBbrowd]

Wow, Greg, I would have loved to have seen that screening of "Hello, Dolly!". That sounds wonderful.

Maybe we will be in for a nice surprise with the DVD, but I am scared that we will end up with the poor print that was used on the region 4 DVD. I read another online review for it as well that stated the picture quality was not so great. :frowning:

I am sometimes not so brave to admit this, because "Hello, Dolly" has faced so much criticism, but it's one of my favorite films of all time. I saw it for the first time when I was quite young and have loved it ever since. Ultimately, I don't think Barbra was too young for the role at all. It's just that people were used to seeing a more seasoned actress in the part. So she was missing a few wrinkles. So what? She will always be Dolly to me. The whole movie is just beautiful. "One mo time!!"

Is it too late to write Fox about the matter of the transfer? At least I could voice my opinion to them. Where do I write?

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Is it too late to write Fox about the matter of the transfer? At least I could voice my opinion to them. Where do I write?

You can trust that they are reading this thread.

 

[Greg_M]

speaking of promotions,

Warner Home Video releases the Cole Porter collection tomorrow (5 titles)I'm surprise (not reallly) FOX didn't schedule a release of Cole Porter's last musical film - the Frank Sintra-Shirely MacLaine "CAN-CAN" and make it seem part of the Warner promotion.

The film takes place in the "Moulin Rogue" section of Paris and feature a plot about the famed dance. Come to think of it, I'm surprised they didn't try to tie it into the DVD release of "MOULIN ROGUE"

 

[Doug Bull]

I did hammer home hopefully to the attention of Fox several months ago on this and also the Studio forum that the Region 4 "Dolly" was a travesty of major proportions.
Given the time frame in this upcoming region 1 release, it would be hoped that Peter or someone else at Fox took some notice of my concerns.

Let's hope that is the case.

The only glimmer of hope is the fact that the region 1 release will contain some extra material on the DVD that is not present on the region 4 one. This hopefully may indicate a different preperation including the print itself.