Audible Component Differences...A Nousaine Story (1 Viewer)

[KrishnaS]

Chu,

Naive question here ok so you guys please don't jump on me! I think I understand from your post and all the others following about what's NOT important in a system. I am in the middle of reading Nousaine's 10 lies and that should give me more information. Now, what I don't get is what IS important? What should a person on a budget focus on? I see what you are all saying about what's not important how about some discussion of the flip side and what IS important.

Not to digress too much but here is the system I am trying to build - am I on the right track according to you and Nousaine?

I have the Energy Take 5 system with a 8" sub.
I just picked up a refurbed HK AVR 525 receiver
I also bougth the Pioneer 563a universal player that is highly rated EXCEPT for the bas smanagement which my receiver can handle anyway.
I have some decent - not overpriced - 12 gauge wire.
I'm going with Radio Shack gold interconnects and cables becuase I truly don't see how cables can affect a system - expecially a budget one like mine.

What should be my upgrade path? My thoughts are that I add some good front speakers moving my satellites to side surround duties. Then maybe add a used SVS. After a year with THAT system maybe add an outboard amp and even better front speakers. Down the road add a dedicated prepro.

Am I on the right track? I know from your posts what not to focus on - am i focused on the right things? Am I right in assuming that the most important things in a system are the speakers and the quality of the receiver/seperates?

Last question Chu - and all the other "sceptics" yet "audiophiles" could you post what equipment you use so I can see what a "budget" yet good system looks like.

I apologize for the rambling post. I am truly fqascinated by this stuff and want to learn more.

KS

 

[Marty Neudel]

>I think you already know what they are<

I sure do: a great performance hall and a set of even greater performers.

Marty

 

[Drew_W]

With all these posts on the same lines, I'd say that I'm curious to see this info as well.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

The 47ai came out about 18 months ago. *That* to me, is a "generation" in DVD player time. BTW, I never said the 47ai was discontinued.

 

[Drew_W]

Ahh generations. MMkay. I still think Pioneer is behind the times though...the 45 and 47 have been without changes for seemingly ages...but that's for another thread.

 

[Mark_J_H_Jr]

I certainly do not consider myself an audiophile or golden ear. Quite the contrary.

Looks like I have fallen into the Urban Legend trap.

I have had only one experience where I thought I could tell a difference when doing a wire/cable comparison test. I said that I “thought” I could tell a difference because it was not a true DBT.

I was with a group of folks out in Dallas listening to several different types of speakers in a nice acoustically treated room. Eventually we ended up comparing a DIY interconnect and some high end interconnect. Sorry I can not give specifics on the two. Except that one was made by one of the fellows there and the other was supposedly an expensive brand.

I was the dissenting soul there who said there would be no difference. But after a few comparisons, eyes closed and mind open, I believed I could tell a subtle difference. I have no idea why, or which one sounded “better”. But it seemed like there was a difference. Perhaps it was peer pressure or all mental, or if one of the interconnects was defective, but they had me convinced there was a subtle difference.

At the same time, they tried to convince me there is a difference in power cords. I personally could not tell any difference in power cords. Although these guys were convinced they could tell a difference.

I am still in the camp of “there is no difference in cables”, but I still have an open mind and won’t dismiss out of hand what some people can hear, or what makes them enjoy this hobby.

Over the past year or so, I convinced myself there is a difference between the DACs in my Panasonic RP-82 and Denon 3802. These units surely don’t rate as high end components. But level matched at 85 dB, I beleve there is a difference. So I would have to disagree that the electronics make no difference. Or is there really a difference…? Or have I subccosciously convinced myself there is a difference?

Doggoneit, I have not done a true DBT, so my results are inconclusive and according to the results of Nousaine et al, I should not be able to tell a difference. A bit is a bit, right?

Looks like I need to set up a DBT and see if I really can tell a difference between the player and receiver consistently.

I do enjoy the Chu Guy threads. Makes me feel good about my 12 gage Home Depot speaker wire and AR interconnects.

 

[KrishnaS]

I think Chu is developing a cult following. Bown down to the power of Chu.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

I did a sighted test once. Outlaw 950 and their 5 ch amp, and the Anthem AVM-20 and MCA-50 (MCA-5?). Not level matched, and we could change back and forth as much as we liked. DVDs, CDs, whatever. I *wanted* to believe that the Anthem gear sounded better. I want to believe that you's spend ya's money and you's gets a better product. But even sighted, try as I might, I simply could not hear any differences. Now, I will fully admit that the Anthem is more tweakible and has some more features than the Outlaw. But sound quality? To me it was a wash. But the interesting thing is, the dude whose gear it was, says that he could hear differences. Midranges, highs, low freqs, etc. (I can't remember his exact comments.) I *believe* that he believed that he heard the differences, but at the same time, I am also convinced that he was also trying to justify the more expensive gear to himself too. fwiw.

 

[Mark_J_H_Jr]

Kevin,

Can you tell a difference between your old 950 and your MC-8?

Sighted, blind or otherwise?

I think this may shed some light on KrishnaS's query earlier about where to spend hard earned dollars on HT equipment. (I am curious myself...)

I'll put my 2 cents in now. Speakers first, then whatever you can do on acoustic treatments to your room. Maybe even acoustic treatments first. Especially if you listen to 2 channel music.

If you want the most out of action/adventure movies I would rate a sub with a faily high Q important.

Chu,

What are your thought on acoustic treatments. Very hard to quantify what, if any room acoustics have on music/HT? But again, I "think" it has improved the sound of my room after I added some DIY treatments.

 

[Michael R Price]

Kevin,

It's interesting that you say this, because over time I've come to associate each of my amplifiers with its characteristic sound. Granted they are very different circuits with very different gain, power output and measured distortion. Also, it didn't seem like level matching was important. In other words, I connected up an amplifier and listened at all sorts of different levels for a while and thought, hey, this amp has a more relaxed sound but not the same bass as my other one. I wonder if that is just a figment of my imagination, and your friend's as well.

I have no doubt that if I did a controlled test, with the levels set to be equal, they all would have sounded the same. But in regular use over time, those little differences seemed to become etched in my mind. Those differences were significant and independently agreed upon by others. I took a stab at a blind comparison of two amplifiers at DC DIY 2003, a 50 watt Class A amp and a 400 watt Class AB amp, at a bunch of different levels - casual listening. That big (big) Class AB amp happened to be the same circuit as one I have been using.

It didn't take my long to figure out which one was the big amp, because it sounded more open and less strained. That baffled me because we couldn't have been using more than 5 watts - and both amps were competently designed with low distortion. What also baffled me was that a bunch of people liked the other amp better, saying it had more detailed highs. I later came to a similar conclusion which is this big amp doesn't have the same clarity in high frequencies as the good Class A ones. I personally don't care, I like the big clean powerful sound. But it sure made me wonder if we get cues from the parts of music - mainly louder parts - which just start... *start*... to expose the distortion in the amplifiers.

Can you tell I still haven't made sense of all this yet?

P.S. Mark, I did at one point make two cheap DIY interconnects and did a sighted test over a few days comparing them to a VCR cord. At the time I got the impression that the DIY wires messed up the sound a little bit. But my system is much better now and, and... let's not go there.

 

[Robert Hoffman]

I appreciate you guys talking about this stuff in a civil manner. I'll be upgrading my speakers soon & buying a separate amp. Originally I had contemplated spending maybe 65/35 speakers vs amp, but now I'm thinking of something closer to 80/20...basically just so I can get an amp that'll put out enough to fully power my speakers.

 

[Lewis Besze]

While I'm not Chu, I know that he would agree with me on that,the room is one of the most important part of any set up.Sadly it is also the most neglected one.Just open up any audio mags and check the reviews,how many room treatment are being reviewed,or check the reviewer's "equipment list" do you see any room treatment there as a "component" ? But you'll see miles of different brands of cables,and vibration damping device even cable elevators :rolleyes.
Yes, room treatments most definitelly has an impact as you already noticed it.

 

[Chu Gai]

I'll go along with that. Sometimes one of the best things to do when you go to a real upscale (read that as pricey) audio place that has rooms devoted to a system is to pay some attention to how things are layed out and what's on the walls, where are things like bookshelves and plants located, where the speakers are in relation to everything and where the listening area is. Then go home, tell your signficant other of your excitement and have her tell you there's no way you're going to be messing with where things are right now

 

[Angelo.M]

Truer words are rarely spoken here.

After your (1) ears/brain/central nervous system/your biases/your preconceptions, the (2) room's geometry and treatments are the most important link in the "sound chain."

Speakers are 3rd. Amplification is somewhere around 12th. Phase of the moon is 13th.

 

[Mike Keith]

Let’s be realistic here, most of us will never go as far as room treatments, the average HT nut will consider the room as a living space first and a acoustic environment second. It’s a compromise, we have to live in comfortable spaces and when you put audio first most rooms become uncomfortable or the decor of heavy curtains and bass traps and the like just don’t fit into a typical family lifestyle or budget priority. Most of us are willing to upgraded equipment and gain utility from new gadgets, it’s much more practical and fun and much can be achieved through this route.

I know it’s really hip lately to talk about how important the room is, but first things first. Placement of you speakers and listening seat have as much to do with the room acoustics as anything, most of the pictures of HT’s that I see have so many problems with the layout that no amount of room treatment will help. Seating with your back against a wall, having all your gear between the front speakers, having your speakers right next to a side wall, or having any in-wall speakers and on and on. Most rooms and lifestyles just don’t allow many to arrange their equipment in the best locations, and once you have such compromises, why try the final tweak of room treatment, at this point it won’t help much; nearly everybody has at least one major compromise in their setup.

I think the general consensus that equipment wont make a difference is just wrong, I’ve made changes that yielded a vast improvement with undisputable physical evidence to back it up (as explained in another thread). Also many forget the assets that utility and conveyance offer. Many equipment upgrades can yield a great deal of satisfaction and give far more pleasure then shaving a db or two of a peak or null.

I believe most people are just like me, I find that some of the equipment upgrades have made a major change for the better in my system without even sounding better. One of the best things I’ve ever done is modify an existing freeware program (SNL) that allowed me to use my Pronto remote and CD mega changer like a real jukebox, just touch the song you want and it’s added to the end of a song list, on the fly. The addition of a computer controlled DVD mega changer has made movies much more enjoyable as well. Now I have instant access to over 150 movies and SACD’s at the click of the mouse and all the annoying previews and FBI warning screens and menus are bypasses, all I get is instant movie. Now I get much more practical use of my system and actually enjoy it more without having to push buttons on the remote so often, plus I listen to more music and watch more movies then ever and I like it!

Other thread I was talking about
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...hreadid=194906

 

[Lewis Besze]

That's not what being said here at all.

 

[Angelo.M]

I'm with Lewis; that's not at all what's being said.

In my view, there are issues of orders of magnitude, and room and speaker modifications/changes make far larger differences than changes in amplification, for example. My opinion is that components of similiar specification behave/perform similarly, not necessarily identically. But similarly enough, in my experience, to make no or almost no difference at all for many users.

 

[KrishnaS]

I still want to hear about what equipment the skeptics are running. It would be a good use for those of us just getting into the hobby and who aren't swayed by $1000 dollar interconnects or "jitter free" CD players.

 

[RobertR]

By far the most expensive component in my setup is the speakers (easily shows you where my priorities are). They're very large (6ft.), heavy (370 lbs.) VMPS ribbon/dynamic hybrids, actively biamped. Speaker wire? A combination of Home Depot and Parts Express stuff, nothing costing more than 43 cents a foot (ok, so I dressed up some of it with Techflex so it would look nice). Interconnects are a combination of Radio Shack and homemade stuff costing 34 cents a foot for Canare wire. I usually watch DVDs with an HTPC, and I also have a Denon DVD-2900. Prepro is an Anthem AVM-20. Main amp is a Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature (lightweight, cool, plenty of power to drive the big speakers). Sub and surround amps are Carvers. I hope that gives you an idea.

 

[Greg Kolinski]

I believe there is a difference in sound between componants.
BUT.......Not to the degree that some magizines and some of
the stuff claimed by some companies.I think the most "bang" you are going to get is when you upgrade from the basic Circuit City ,Best Buy stuff, to the nicely built mid price stuff like Parasound,Rotel.NAD etc.I could tell a difference when I went from my HK 520 to my Rotel RSX 1055 reciever.I had been fighting a pretty brutal treble problem on some CD's.Tried a couple differnt CD players,a couple low end IC changes and nothing.I guess the Rotel rolls off some of the higher stuff,the "brightness" problem was gone after the reciever swap.Kinda funny my "test" was on a couple of the worst CD's,the treble would beep the alarm shock sensor in my kitchen at certain times in different song,after the Rotel, it quit,at the same volumn level, and all that.I also run seperate amps and use the Rotel as a pre/pro.The first amp I got was a Rotel 130 w two channel, in an attempt to fix my treble problems.The other amp is an old Adcom GFA 6000 five channel.I got it cause it was only $100 at a local audio store having a sale.$100 for a good working 100 watt 5 channel was just too good a deal to pass on .I can here no sound difference between the 2 amps.I have really wanted to believe in some of the claims of the magizines and some of the companies about wires and IC's ,power cords etc,but so far the few times I got my feet wet in these areas,I could hear no difference.True,my hearing is not what it used to be,I guess 20 + years of air tools and stuff has taken it toll.

Greg Kolinski