Are "boomers" the key to high resolution audio? I think so... (1 Viewer)

[LanceJ]

Dvd-audio sales are easy to figure out, because some people are forgetting that enjoying surround music and hi-res music are two different things (don't forget most people can't tell--or don't care--the difference between CD sound and hi-res sound, or many times CD and a 160kbps MP3).

The dvd-audio advertising I see is pushing the surround mixes and its high resolution aspect. There is no CD layer on a dvd-audio. So, people that buy dvd-audios are ONLY buying them for their:

1) Surround mixes. And it doesn't matter whether they are listening to the Dolby/DTS tracks or the MLP tracks.

or

2) Buying them strictly for the hi-res capabilities (surround or stereo).

So, when comparing dvd-audio sales to hybrid sacd sales, we get a much more accurate view of who is buying for the surround/hi-res properties, the main selling points of BOTH formats. So obviously dvd-audio's advertised features have convinced some people that they are worth buying. One nitpick: The one thing we can't tell from dvd-audio sales figures is who is buying for the surround mixes & who is buying for the hi-res mixes.

LJ

 

[Carl Miller]

(And in a related footnote, I can't believe I'm actually pushing for more Britney releases. I'm looking for the carbon copy of a contract with Satan right now....)

Tim, I just have to say thank you for this! One of the crappiest days I've had at work in a real long time, and this just brought a big laugh out of me.

Back on subject:

Even if the sales for Dark Side, the Stones and Dylan are indeed strong and purchased for the SACD layer, I wonder where it will go from here?

The industry is dusting off legendary albums and artists to push hirez, but there is only so much of this to go around. It's not a stretch by any means to suggest that after Floyd, the Stones, Dylan and perhaps in the future The Who, Beatles and Zeppelin if possible, the industry will have run out of the type of gauranteed sales albums like DSOTM and the Stones catalog can provide.

DSOTM and the Stones were no brainers and IMO, not exactly the best barometers of interest in the format.

 

[Rachael B]

Lee, my belief is that the boomers already lauched the format, that's done. You noted that the boomers are a minority of the market, "35 %". For the format to truly succeed and get over the top, the hybrids have to flow on new, current artists.

Hey, I'm a booomer. I like my selection of jazz on SACD. I don't buy but a few classical discs a year but the selection looks good there too. As far as rock, blues, R&B, and funk goes I'm TOTALLY disatified with the selection. It's DAMN meager!!!

Let's see, for rock, new...relatively recent...what have we got...? Grant-Lee Phillips, Dredg, Oasis, Suitcase Pimps, Train, Zebrahead, Death Cab For Cutie, Brian Ferry, Colleen Sexton, Cowboy Junkies, Joe Satriani, ...ugh! Bon Jovi which is not only one of the most totally bored albums imaginable but one of the worst sounding SACD's to date, David Johansen, ...I'm running out of steam. That's a pretty short list, si? Where's the really popular stuff???

IMO, SACD is near a crossroad. Either it goes mainstream with hybrids or it gradually wither away as a niche format.

Young people buy the most music. The format needs them and must appeal to them or it withers. Rap and electronica and even industrial might really be made for 5.1??? Nobody's bothered to even try them, have they???? IMO, the boomers gave the format a boost but that's over. So far as I know SACD hasn't passed vinyl yet. That speaks volumes to me and also suggests that many boomers may stille prefer vinyl.

I want SACD to replace CD. There would be many, many more audiophile releases if the format was BIGGER. I just don't see much will on Sony's part to hybridize their audio discs. Content is king and SACD is failing at serving anybody but boomers IMO. ...and I'm a dissatisfied boomer. As long as my current fav's are not on SACD, I'm dissatisfied, and they are not...well a few are.

Furthermore, many SACD labels are just waiting to see if it's worth their trouble to press anymore up it seems, sorry I'm extrapolating from their actions oir lack there of. Labels like Audioquest, DMP, Water Lilly Acoustics, and a few others have virtually quit making releases. IMO, if Sony can't lead with more vigor, who will follow? Sure, they did Dylan but very little else lately. Why didn't they make John Mayer a hybrid? Why didn't Universal make Ryan Adams a hybrid?

When I go by Busted Buy's SACD section the only thing I ever see I'd buy is the Universal jazz titles these days. Outside of the 30 year old re-releases theres nothing in the rock genere to even consider.

If Sony was at all serious about SACD they would replace all those single-layer discs with hybrids promptly and get them off the bleeding shelves!!!!! Universal should do the same. Atleast it's a smaller chore for them. Single-layer is market poison and they need to vanish or atleast recede to true audiphile recordings maybe...?

Conclusion: Sony is (relatively)broke and bruised and wishing for somebody else's wind to blow their format towards more success. They've bungled things very badly with their single-layer pipe dreams.... Viva le Hybride, hybridize now...everything fast. Purge the S-L's stuff promptly. People want a versitile disc and you can bet that's what joe average, age 22, rock and rap fan wants...even if he doesn't know it yet.

Is SACD just gonna gnaw? Or, is it gonna slash and cut away....

So far, it looks like the former.

 

[Glenn Overholt]

I want to play 'dummy'. Convince me that I should get in SACD/hi-res.

If my current CD's and equipment can make me feel like I am at a 'live' performance, why should I change other than to line someone else's pockets?

Glenn

 

[Rachael B]

That's easy Glen, you need 5.1 music. With 3.1 more speakers than CD, it's louder and more effective at disturbing the neighbors!

 

[David_Stein]

one more thing that i noticed while looking at SACD and DVDA catalogs that is of interest to this debate over how to attract more young(er) customers:

DVDA by far has many more punk/metal releases. just off the top of my head i know you can get motorhead, joey ramone, clash, stiff little fingers, and biohazard on DVDA. SACD has nothing of the sort. i dont know if its the labels involved or if there are less licensing fees or whatever, but DVDA seems to be getting more exposure with smaller bands.

 

[DavidLW]

DSotM and Rolling Stones are no brainers and IMO not the best baraomter of interest for the format

Actually from the music industry point of veiw it's a valuable barometer. Is not easy to sell a Hi-rez disc to someone that probably own the disc in several other formats. That someone has to perceive a resonable return on investment before he shell out another $25.00. It's like trying to sell air conditioners in Alaska. The music industry will have a big payoff if they can convince us to replace our music collection....once again. Right now they are sitting on a hugh library of old recordings whose combine sales probably wouldn't match the sales of todays top ten artist. But if they can convince most of us, it becomes a gold mine.

Britney Spear is a no-brainer (you can read that anyway you want and I'll be correct )If you put her next release on Hi-rez only, sure it'll sell a couple of million copies. But is that necessarly good for the Hi-rez format. I can hear the reveiws from her fans already. "It sure kicks ass on my Bose system", "It makes for a better MP3 rip", "Hi-rez, what's that, her lipstick color" and so on. If Hi-rez becomes a standard, then it becomes a commodity and the music industry may not see fit to spend the extra money or effort to do it right. "Electronicly Enhanced for Stereo" comes to mind.

 

[DavidLW]

If my current CD's and equipment can make me feel like I'm at a "live" performance...........

With CD you're seated "last row center" with a wall behind you.

With Hi-rez (5.1) you're seated "front row center" with a thousand fans behind you.

I want to be seated "front row center" with no one behind me, that's why my format of choice is vinyl.

 

[Glenn Overholt]

Ok, that was unfair. This was supposed to be a cd/hi-res contest, not one involving vinyls!

I used to have those, but then they just stopped making them, and I haven't seen many 300 LP changers running around.

Rachael, my neighbors all moved away after the last time I played Godzilla (US version) - for them.

Glenn

 

[Tim Hoover]

But is that necessarly good for the Hi-rez format. I can hear the reveiws from her fans already. "It sure kicks ass on my Bose system", "It makes for a better MP3 rip", "Hi-rez, what's that, her lipstick color" and so on.

DavidLW, I personally don't believe that would be the case. The younger people today absolutely love music, and I feel that if they could be educated on the sonic benefits of hi-rez that they would gladly accept it. I'm a 26-yr old musician, and sure I love portability and ease of use, etc...but first and foremost I am in love with the music and want to hear it reproduced as best as it possibly can. The kids these days settle for low-rez MP3 and 'boomer' car stereos because they have no benchmark for high-quality sound reproduction. Show them how it sounds! Allow them to see how much closer they could be to their beloved music!

David Stein, there's a Clash release on DVD-A? Which one? I'm practically salivating thinking about it, as I haven't heard a peep about one.

BTW Carl, glad I could brighten your day. I was contemplating suicide after realizing I was advocating Britney in hi-rez

 

[Brian+H]

I gotta say Rachaels post back there was Right. On.

I think you put it perfectly Rachael.

About sacd being at a crossroads? Excellent observation.

I've been thinking for the last 6 months that 2004 COULD be the year that sacd breaks through. I still think that, IF Sony puts hybrids in the fast lane.

David K. saying boomers are where it's at is a tired strategy. You're so right. We NEED newer material.
Dvd-a has punk/metal releases? Sure if you aren't confused about how to hear the damn format. 24/44 surround layers give me a break. That format is definately losing.
Vinyl beats both sacd and dvd-a in sales this year.
AC/DC on vinyl. Where's the sacd versions?? I'm waiting.

It's like sacd is on the very EDGE of wider acceptance
and....and.... we're still waiting for it to cross to the other side...

You guys can laugh all you want about Spears and other crap on hi-res, but it gets me thinking of how dvd-v took off in the mid-90's.
There was an explosion of computer sales back then, and alot of computers had the first gen. of dvd drives on them.
No body knew what it was back then. It was included in computer setups. The customers certainly didn't look for the dvd-v technology.
But because they were piggybacked onto computers people got exposure to the technology in great numbers.
That's a big reason how dvd-v took off IMO.

The first dvd-v's looked terrible lol. The technology wasn't mature yet. But of course it's improved.
Imagine all the younger people buying their new hybrid sacd's and not having a clue about the format.
They just pick up the newest albums.
Unfortunately, I think that's a long way off. But it doesn't have to be.
Slowly but surely millions of people become aware of the format. It sounds like the dvd-v formula, which was a little successful lol.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

And in regards to the Mariah Carey/Robbie Williams argument, I feel that is irrelevant.

It's totally relevant since it gets to the heart of why the industry is having profit troubles. Read the new BusinessWeek story on Edgar Bronfman buying Warner. They discuss this there. Maybe I will excerpt some quotes later today.

Rachael,

I agree with you and will up you one: Not only does Sony need to start issuing hybrids only they should do single inventory where possible to raise visibility.

By the way, Kawakami hints at why there are not more hybrids...he states that SACD disc production is still trying to keep demand. A mixed blessing I guess.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

The costs are not that higher, under a dollar per disc I am told and as low as a quarter on the big series pressings.

That is certainly a non-trivial increase in cost! That could take a big chunk out of profit when compared to dual-releases. Spending an extra $.25 - $1 on each the discs that your thousands/millions of Redbook listeners purchase is an unneeded hit to the bottom line.

This may explain why we aren't seeing single-inventory releases of typical blockbuster titles.

Has there been any single-inventory release of a major label pop/rock disc that was not subsidized by Sony? If single-inventory releases increase profits, I'd expect to see plenty of them.

 

[David_Stein]

Tim,
i just looked through buy.com's dvda selection and they dont seem to have it. i saw what i thought was a clash dvda in the dvda section of best buy. compared to the way the rest of the store was, there is a good chance someone just tossed a regular cd in that section. sorry for getting your hopes up. i did notice a Sham 69, a damned, and a new york dolls that i had forgotten about before. plus the flaming lips released their latest on dvda (yoshimi v.) so i really think that compared to SACD, DVDA has a lot more selection of smaller artists. does anyone know if its label support or format licensing fees is the cause?

 

[Tim Hoover]

Lee - whoops! Completely missed the niche thing in your original post, but the phraseology of your original question is still open to interpretation of niche or mainstream format.

It's totally relevant since it gets to the heart of why the industry is having profit troubles.

This is not a discussion about the industry's profit woes, but rather a discussion about how to win more converts to hi-rez. See, Britney has already sold millions of copies of her recent albums. They have already recouped the financial investment, so how's about rolling them out in hi-rez?

David Stein - gracias for the update. Perhaps it was the DVD-V of "Westway to the World" that they mistakenly put in the wrong section...

 

[Darryl]

DVDA by far has many more punk/metal releases.

Yeah, I think DVD-A has a few more. Queensryche and Metallica are the two biggest that haven't already been mentioned in this thread. They are both excellent discs, too. But be warned that at least some of the other metal and metal-ish releases are "fake" surround and not any better fidelity than CD releases (the Uriah Heap DVD-A comes to mind).

Metal and quasi-metal/punk artists available on SACD include Alice In Chains, Manowar, Ozzy, Deep Purple, and Offspring. There's probably others. Pretty slim pickings, but metal isn't completely absent from SACD.

 

[David_Stein]

Manowar?!?!?!?!?!?!

oh my god. this is the greatest thing ever, and its warriors of the world, that song is by far the greatest (by way of of benig the most cliche filled) metal song ive ever heard. so fun.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

This may explain why we aren't seeing single-inventory releases of typical blockbuster titles.

But we are...the Rolling Stones, DSOTM and Dylan were all single inventory. That's a damn good list. The reason we are not seeing Britney type albums is that the pressing quantities might be too much for the current production system. It is clear from the titles that Sony is at least pursuing the "boomer strategy".

For single inventory releases, I suspect Sony is comparing the estimated extra revenue from Super Audio purchasers against the extra costs of production, and perhaps most importantly, the intangible value of the extra marketing oomph from the releases (higher visibility), and the extra royaltees they earn. Then they are probably weighing this versus the initial investment in the format and the added revenue from a new royalty claim and new pro equipment sales to engineers.

For audiophile labels, I think I can speak with some authority that the extra cost of disc replication (and $0.05 royalty) and DSD mastering (not much more than $100-200K is materially less than the added revenue from hirez buyers.

The main thing is that Sony & Philips can show an extra revenue stream to a variety of users in a fairly bleak music world. That gets peoples attention. And then to have large sales numbers to throw around (tainted or not tainted by some unknown redbook portion depending on your view) to attract more super groups only perpetuates the cycle.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Pretty slim pickings, but metal isn't completely absent from SACD.

One wonders what the total sales of metal groups are as a percent of total sales figures...

 

[Phil A]

Lee here is some breakdown of music sales by genre from an article by an organization that unfortunately I am past the age that I'm old enough to be a memeber:

http://www.aarpmagazine.org/lifestyl...cordsales.html