American Beauty - will it stand the test of time. (1 Viewer)

[Tom-G]

quote: Tom, Walt expressed why he didn't like AB, and gave specific examples, in the first page of this thread.[/quote]
Micke, please let Walt respond. He can speak for himself. He gave examples of the film having a politcal agenda in his first post, but I'm still waiting for examples of what made him think Kevin Spacey was miscast and examples of the script being poorly written.
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As for the bad rap about the characters--hey, I've seen space operas that put their emphasis on human personalities and relationships. They're called "Star Trek" movies. Give me transparent underwater cities and vast hollow senatorial spheres any day. --Roger Ebert on The Phantom Menace
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[Edited last by Tom_G on October 04, 2001 at 11:07 AM]

 

[DaveF]

Why in the world do you assume that Lolita is depressing?

Because it was written by a Russian! Seriously, much of the great literature by Russians is dark, weird, or both. Given the subject matter of Lolita, I assumed it was a tragic story. And, it was just compared to AB, a tragic movie.
"The Russian political process is like a dog fight under the rug. There's a lot of noise and motion, but you can't see what's going on. And occaisionally a dead dog is thrown out from under the rug." -- Paraphrase by former professor; original source unknown.

 

[MickeS]

Tom, I know Walt can respond himself, but if you read his first message you get the answers to your questions ("examples of what made him think Kevin Spacey was miscast and examples of the script being poorly written").It seemed like you didn't read that post, that's all, since Walt pointed out that Spacey was miscast because he's (supposedly) gay in real life, and the script was poorly written since it used cliched shorthand to describe the ex-military guy. At least that's how I read Walt's first post...
/Mike
[Edited last by MickeS on October 04, 2001 at 02:12 PM]

 

[Tom-G]

Walt pointed out that Spacey was miscast because he's (supposedly) gay in real life

If that's the reason Spacey was miscast (because he's supposedly gay), that would be one of the most ludicrous statements I have ever read. By that logic, Julianne Moore was miscast as a druggie in Boogie Nights because as far as I know, she's not perpetually high. Another example would be Robert De Niro being miscast as Jake Lamotta, because, Robert De Niro isn't a pugilist. I could go on and on but there is no need to.
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As for the bad rap about the characters--hey, I've seen space operas that put their emphasis on human personalities and relationships. They're called "Star Trek" movies. Give me transparent underwater cities and vast hollow senatorial spheres any day. --Roger Ebert on The Phantom Menace
AIM: Aureus91 / DVDs / ICQ: 58566493

 

[Justin Doring]

Will American Beauty stand the test of time? Yes and no. Yes, because it will not slip into oblivion because virutally every element that composes it is very good; it has merit and will be a film for period reference. No, becuase it is not a great film like Eyes Wide Shut or Magnolia (films released the same year).
As far as being a leftest diatribe, once agian, yes and no. Yes, it is leftest, as most films are, but I don't think that was one of the main goals of the filmmakers. I'm sure it had an unconscious effect, or even a conscious one, on their work, but I don't hold that against them or the film they made.
Al: I don't want to resurrect our Lolita discussion, but I view Nabakov's novel as a satirical tragedy, and Lyne captured this beautifully.
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"Home is where the theater is!"
[Edited last by Justin Doring on October 06, 2001 at 02:27 AM]

 

[MikeM]

I like this film more and more each time I view it. So I'd have to say yes, it can stand the test of time.
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[James D S]

I was thinking about this same exact question the other day when I was going through my DVD library looking to clean out some of the duds. When I came across this title, I decided to keep only for the fact that it won Best Picture - and despite my personal feelings about the movie, I would like to keep all the Best Pictures I come across, if only as a reference.
My feeling is this, movies that revolve around cynical views of life do not last over time. As of now, I can't think of many broad appealing movies (broad appeal many years after the fact being the criterion for a "lasting" movie) that use cynicism as the major theme.
Two reasons:
Common cynicisms change through time and, despite steller performances by most of the cast, the majority of people who celebrate themes like this or who can extract entertainment from the movies narrow view of life are those with behavioral (social or familial) disorders - not (hopefully) a majority.
IMHO.
[Edited last by James D S on October 08, 2001 at 01:25 PM]

 

[Trace Downing]

My feelings on AB are this...
The film touched on some great subject matter, but in the end, left me wanting more. More of a catharsis, more of an outcome, more everything, because they built a drama up, and quite possibly went with a very complex subject matter to begin with. Something so ambitious in most instantces couldn't possibly be resolved in 2 1/2 hours time. Maybe it was also that I was also looking for an answer, where Ball/Mendes couldn't give me one. I think it was a wonderful try, but in the end, incomplete.
Standing the test of time...maybe not, Kramer vs. Kramer sure didn't.
On another note.
I know we are supposed to respect other's opinions on this forum, but those that insist on injecting "Gagnolia" into every other subject (especially films of '99) are really trying my patience! Calling that piece of crap "a great film" only serves to give me visions of serious violence in my brain!

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[Edited last by Trace Downing on October 08, 2001 at 02:06 PM]

 

[Mike Broadman]

My feeling is this, movies that revolve around cynical views of life do not last over time. As of now, I can't think of many broad appealing movies (broad appeal many years after the fact being the criterion for a "lasting" movie) that use cynicism as the major theme.
Two reasons:
Common cynicisms change through time and, despite steller performances by most of the cast, the majority of people who celebrate themes like this or who can extract entertainment from the movies narrow view of life are those with behavioral (social or familial) disorders - not (hopefully) a majority

In defense of Cynicism:
What one may call cynicism, another can call realism. One of the reasons why so many movies are awful is that they insist on giving us a world where any problem is easily resolved if the hero is nice and the girl is pretty. This may succeed as escapism, but can't truly connect with us. For a piece of art to succeed, it must connect with the observer. This is why sitcoms fail when they try to get serious. TV and movie writers fall back on coincedences and outragous events to ensure the main characters a happy ending. Nonsense.
I'm not sure what you consider Cynicism, but here are some successful movies (not all of which I like, but they are popular) that feature some darker or cynical elements:
Godfather trilogy: the beautiful concept of family is a big theme throughout this tale of violence and crime, culminating in Michael Corleone killing his own brother.
Gone With The Wind: Not a very hopeful take on marriage. In order to get Scarlet to appreciate him, Rhett forces himself on her, which she is thrilled about the next morning. This makes American Beauty look like a walk in the park.
Horror movies: need I say more?
Woody Allen: Nervous, direct, biting. At his best, Woody Allen rips romance apart to the point where we can examine it, kick it around, and ultimately laugh at it. Not a sunny look at love, but one that hits us very strongly.
Taxi Driver: Loneliness. Despair. Trying to help, making it worse. Insanity. Classic film.
Any Stanley Kubrick movie.
American Beauty, despite its flaws, works because it speaks to the recesses of our feelings and brings it out into the spotlight, then mocks it while celebrating it as Human Nature. Flash: middle-aged women do get shrilly and bitchy, teenage girls are moody and obnoxious, middle-age men do get obsessed with their youth and act like morons around pretty young girls. Sure, not all, but the feelings are there for many people. This movie exagerrates it to its logically absurd end.
Hooray for Cynicism.

 

[James D S]

quote: What one may call cynicism, another can call realism.[/quote]
Maybe that's the sad truth. I doubt it, but maybe that is where we are trending.
Hopefully, the confusion between the two is only experienced by a few. Hopefully.
(We tend only to remember the stop lights that are red, forgetting the lights that are green. Subsequently, we feel that all stop lights are out to get us.)
In either case, I think the limited life view expressed in American Beauty doesn't serve as the "wake-up" call it's billed as, nor is it enlightening. It solves nothing. Ultimately, it says nothing.
Giving the problem a name doesn't solve the problem. And there are solutions to every problem.
American Beauty is that joke that's only funny the first time you hear it.
[Edited last by James D S on October 08, 2001 at 05:50 PM]

 

[Derek Miner]

quote: I think the limited life view expressed in American Beauty doesn't serve as the "wake-up" call it's billed as, nor is it enlightening. It solves nothing. Ultimately, it says nothing.

I didn't find that to be true at all. Are you saying the message of this movie was that "life sucks, deal with it"?
Wasn't the film trying to tell us to appreciate our loved ones and that putting our love aside in the pursuit of ideals and things is ultimately hollow? Didn't the film make you think about how you treat other people, especially if you hide behind a false front? Writing this out sounds silly and cliched, but isn't that the strength of the film? Putting forth these common ideas in a different and interesting way?
I was most attracted to American Beauty as an observation on teenagers. The characters played by Thora Birch and Mena Suvari felt incredibly real. Wes Bentley's character, on the other hand was something completely surreal, but in a positive way. Think about some other satire on teenage angst, such as Heathers. The interloper (in the case of Heathers, Christian Slater's J.D.) who shows up in films like that is wild and dangerous. Wes Bentley was not that at all. He showed wisdom beyond his years, an amazing ability to understand a person's character, and a passivity to the criticisms of others that I only wish I had.
Instead of the usual teen angst "fuck the system" message (displayed, ironically, by the adult - Kevin Spacey's Lester), American Beauty seems to advocate something like "do unto others..." Ultimately, the "fuck the system" ideal is suggested to be fruitless and we are pointed toward holding on to the innocence of youth. At least that's how I see it.
I can't say that I know the film will last, but I will always hold it in high regard.
= Derek =
[Edited last by Derek Miner on October 09, 2001 at 12:01 AM]

 

[Paul_D]

Wasn't the film trying to tell us to appreciate our loved ones and that putting our love aside in the pursuit of ideals and things is ultimately hollow? Didn't the film make you think about how you treat other people, especially if you hide behind a false front?

To question 1 - Yes but I didn't think this was a particularly original or profound message.
To question 2 - No. It didn't.

 

[Mike Broadman]

It seems like some people are saying that American Beauty failed because it didn't give us some "profound original message." Who said it had to? It gave us "messages" that are common themes throughout movies, but in an entertaining and fun way. I think that's about as much as you can hope for in a movie.
If you want deep philosophy and the meaning of life, don't turn to movies.
American Beauty was about family, love, and relationships. The vast majority of movies that throw this stuff at us are boring, insipid "romantic comedies." Is that really better than American Beauty?

 

[Paul_D]

It seems like some people are saying that American Beauty failed because it didn't give us some "profound original message." Who said it had to?

Good point! I didn't even think about it like that. I think this thread has turned into a series of demands that American Beauty justify its acclaim, and with every post that justification has gotten more and more lofty. The question 'Will it stand the test of time?' is only partially releated to its critical acclaim. So an appraisal of its merits as a film, AND its place in modern culture are necessary to answer the question.
I think the point was though, that AB is written as if it does hold some profound answers (for evidence see the utterly pretentious floating bag sequence), and for the most part (IMO) it doesn't!

 

[James D S]

The characters played by Thora Birch and Mena Suvari felt incredibly real...

In reference to realism, I was in hich school a couple of years ago and am familiar enough with demands on adolescents within the common social structure - But Thora Birch's character being a cheerleader is pure Hollywood.
And in reference to the lofty goals - I don't think a movie has to reach the ones we've outlined to be remembered. But it doesn't help that it tried and failed.
Maybe AB will "stand the test of time," but considering the shallow, cliche-ridden story - I think in the future we will look to other movies to fill the gap AB tried to fill. No doubt movies that blend Ab's sense of purpose, yet incorporate a message.
AB says nothing. (Or very little, at the most)
If AB expresses something to you and it justifies your depression and anxieties, good for AB. Bad for you.
IMHO

 

[DonMac]

I think that American Beauty will be seen in a similar fashion to the way Ordinary People and Kramer vs. Kramer are generally seen today. That is, so-so "family drama type" movies that won over what are now clearly much superior films (Apocalypse Now and Raging Bull, respectively). The only catch with American Beauty is that most of the superior films of 1999 were not even nominated by the Academy.
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"It is the customary fate of new truths to begin as heresies and to end as superstitions." - T. H. Huxley

 

[Trace Downing]

I re-watched it again, and I can say I should retract my earlier statement about it being incomplete.
Maybe this is a generational thing, but I believe I got more out of it this evening than I did a year ago when I last saw it. I'm 36 (5 years from Lester's age, not that his situation should be universal), and knowing what I know now, I can't be sure of much of anything. Of course in my 20s, I knew Everything, and had all the answers!
quote: I think the limited life view expressed in American Beauty doesn't serve as the "wake-up" call it's billed as, nor is it enlightening. It solves nothing. Ultimately, it says nothing. [/quote]
No, it says something. but it's not the manifesto that you want to paste on it. It's just a slice of middle aged suburban life that many (obviously not to some...What's it like to walk on water?) have to go through to find happiness. Very few end in jailbait lust or murder.
I found it (even if it doesn't relate to me directly) one of the most thematically honest films I've seen, and that includes that POS Gagnolia. It poses questions yes, but only offers one possible course of action, not answers, because in the end, there are no easy answers to life's questions (If you disagree, come to me in 15 years and we'll see if you still believe that).
Regarding the "leftist leanings", I found none, but then we all see what we want to see, don't we? Having a stable gay couple live next door, is not a problem (and they do exist, it's not propoganda). Having a brainwashed closet-case, with an arsenal, summoning the courage to be himself, and being rejected when his life has passed him by, because that's what was expected of him? This is a problem.
Of course, I could read this post in 5 years and say to myself..."God, what an arrogant prick you were".

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[Edited last by Trace Downing on October 10, 2001 at 12:59 AM]

 

[Mike Broadman]

If AB has any message, it's "Look how silly the people are." That's it, really.
It's not meant to "justify anxieties," as someone put it.
There was also criticism about how the pot-head was the most "normal" character. Well, he wasn't. The floating bag wasn't to show us how beautiful it was, it was to show us that he thought it was. That's a huge difference. The kid was messed up. But he found a way to deal with it. It's not perfect (crying at a floating bag), but it's better than trying to pooch your daughter's best friend, ruining your wife's mental health because of your closet homosexuality, lying about your sex life to impress people, or becoming a repressed work-aholic obsessed with material objects.
Like Titanic and Star Wars, American Beauty's popularity made people expect to much from it. Contrary to what some people have posted, AB certainly did not try to give a us a Message. It was freakin' comedy.
Besides, no matter what you think of the movie, I consider anything that gives us this much controversy to be at least a little successful. It sure beats Pretty Woman.