A Few Words About A few words about... the image and audio restoration of "Vertigo" and DVD (1 Viewer)

[Robert Harris]

I don't believe it has anything to do with "disrespect."

The new track was about commerce and profits, which allowed for the film (and others) to be restored.

RAH

 

[Mark Lucas]

I'm not sure I fully understand. Did Universal do research that told them that a faithful reproduction of Vertigo's soundtrack would not be as profitable as using action movie gunshots and obvious foley effects?

 

[Craig Beam]

Bigger and louder = less "classic" and more "modern" = more potential market appeal. Universal didn't need to do any special research to tell them that. It's unfortunately a corporate mindset that continues to this day. Just look at the pointless 5.1 DD and DTS tacks on the recent To Kill A Mockingbird DVD.

 

[Kevin M]

I asked a similar question in another thread but I'll ask what is probably the important question regarding any re-restoration using the new processes in 4k.....how much would it cost?
A pretty penny I would think.

 

[Mark Lucas]

Did they add explosions to the soundtrack?

 

[Robert Harris]

The cost would actually be appreciatively less than an analogue restoration and the creation of multiple film elements.

RAH

 

[Kevin M]

Really? Makes sense though, as technology advances and is more widespread in it's use the price does tend to come down. You said that it was experimented on in Rear Window, any scenes in particular?

 

[ChristopherDAC]

If nothing else, if anything at all remains of the yellow layer at this late date, the transfer characteristic of the yellow component can be adjusted during the process. Of course the product would be noisy and lack fine gradations, but at least it would have the correct amplitude range. There are all kinds of wonderful electronic correxions -- it is not beyond the bounds of possibility [though I wonder if the equipment exists] to scan the separation masters and adjust their geometry via reference points in the frame.
Of course, without the magnetic masters, the quality of the original sound must remain limited, but one must always remember that original recording and intermediate film is a far more sensitive recording medium than release-print stock -- particularly older release-print stock. The Dolby System and advances in variable-area techniques [NHK developed an electron-beam master recording method for print-downs from HiVision] have helped to bring the theatre closer to the studio as much as they have improved the studio recording itself. Again, I don't know whether the machinery exists to deal with shrunken acetates, but it is feasible if anyone wanted to try.

 

[Robert Harris]

While one can adjust the yellow layer of a negative to some degree, especially in highlights where the remaining bits of the layer can still be found, it is those areas which were initially so thin on the negative, ie. blacks, which are the problem.

We essentially used this process in the preparation of new interpositives from the faded original, adjusting color density and gamma as best possible via processing and exposure.

In the final analysis, if it ain't there in the negative...

RAH

 

[John Whittle]

Having fought this yellow layer problem myself on a project, all I can say is that while this may appear true in theory, it doesn't work in practice.

Given unlimited money and time, it might be possible in the case of Vertigo to make a new set of seps and then take the Technicolor seps and use the old yellow record to bi-pack and make a new yellow record with better gamma and density.

Working in a photo-chemical mode takes lots of time (test, process, print, test, process, print, ...) with variable results. Since fading is not consistent, adjustments are many and common.

Warner's system of digital composition of seps might be a better and quicker route. A similar system existed several years ago at a now defunct lab, WRS which had a triple headed optical printer which allowed registration and adjustment of all three seps at the same time. Again it was photo-chemical and expensive and slow.

John

 

[ChristopherDAC]

My point being that certain things which are time-consuming and expensive to do with photochemical methods become remarkably straightforward in an electronic system -- even if the results don't turn out much better. Indeed, with electronics it could even become reasonable to collate scanned images from all the available source for a given frame and reduce them to the best-quality image, something which would be absolutley hopeless with optical techniques. That said, do I really expect anyone to do it? Not any time soon.

 

[Moe Dickstein]

Resurrecting this in hopes of a comment from the esteemed RAH

I've finally purchased the MC box set and was A/Bing the audio and I see from what I've read here that Universal had pushed for more effects, and that you had fought to tone them down more in line with the original sound.

One section that baffled me however was the first scene at Ernie's, The score is of course wonderful here, but when I popped over to the mono, it's almost halfway buried under crowd noises.

And it was interesting to think about how this losing the crowd sounds almost focuses the scene - however this would be one case where the powers that be DIDN'T enforce foley.

With the multichannel mix was the decision made to let the music "take over" in these areas more? Any comments about this are appreciated - I must say I appreciate both tracks for different reasons. the mono track, while "authentic" doesn't sound anywhere near the 5.1 with the music. The only foley that truly makes me cringe is the cannon like gunshots in the opening scene.

 

[WilliamMcK]

-------------------
From Moe Dickstein:

The only foley that truly makes me cringe is the cannon like gunshots in the opening scene.
---------------

When I saw the restoration at the Ziegfeld in NYC (wow, almost 11 years ago!), those echoing--very digital sounding--gunshots in the opening were the only aspect of the restoration that disturbed me. However, since purchasing the MC box-set I've probably watched Vertigo 3 or 4 times--each time with the mono track. Despite the popping, clicking and slight distortion (all mostly in the first reel) I still find the original track preferable to the "restored" sound. I also find that with the Dolby track I had to constantly adjust my volume as the dialogue seemed too low, and the music/effects seemed too loud; there's no such problem with mono track.

 

[Bob Furmanek]

I didn't care for the happy, chirping birds during the redwoods sequence. It really spoiled the mood of that haunting scene.

The other really bad foley moment that comes to mind was when her body lands on the roof. In the original release mono version, you hear it in proper balance with the music. In the new mix, it booms out of the right channel at top volume and sounds like an anvil dropping on a trash dumpster!

I once screened an original 35mm print for a friend that had never seen the film and he was blown away by it. When I showed him that rooftop scene in the new laserdisc, he laughed at the ludicrous sound effect.

 

[Bruce Morrison]

I recently bought the current single DVD of Vertigo, as my copy of the original orange-sleeve edition had "died". Leaving aside some of the relatively subtle points in the mix that have been commented on in this thread, the thing that totally disconcerted me was what I can only describe as the extreme bass rumble that is present in all the music cues. I had to turn my receiver's bass control right down to tame this unwanted effect.

I don't really understand why an LFE track was included in this edition (the first DVD release was just 5.0) for an original 1950's soundtrack that doesn't have any sound effects requiring extreme bass and whose music score involves just standard orchestral instruments (not even a bass drum).

Does the edition of Vertigo included in the box set have a different audio mix from this single DVD edition?

 

[Robert Harris]

In answer to Mr. Dickstein's question, what one hears on the mono track vs. the new stereo is less a function of design and quite a bit that of loss of certain frequencies due to the duping process. As an example, if one compares the opening music, there entire areas of the score which are not reproduced via an optical dupe.

 

[Moe Dickstein]

I shouldnt have mentioned cringe foley at all, as my main thought was about the ambient crowd noises in Ernie's, as this is "foley" (or just live production track of people in a restaurant) that is NOT present in the 5.1 mix, as opposed to the usual case where things are more present in that mix.

My question again, was, was this a distinct choice, to feature only the music here, and what was the thinking behind it. I would assume that since these room/crowd sounds can be heard on the mono track, they weren't lost to duping, was it a case of, since there's no actual dialogue here, the mixing in of the dupe mono audio was not done here, as it had to be with dialogue (and as you mentioned a boosting of the score to cover things that were impossible to extract)

I should have kept my original post more focused

 

[Robert Harris]

There was no thinking behind it.

 

[Bob Furmanek]

Huh? Please explain...

 

[Moe Dickstein]

I assuming RAH meant that it wasn't any sort of deliberate choice.