A Few Words About A few words about... Ben-Hur (1 Viewer)

[Stephen PI]

I have a lot of great memories of going to the West-End Cinemas in the early sixties, except for the visit to the Royalty!

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Great discussion here. Thanks to all!


That had actually crossed my mind...since Lowry can do all that from end-end. Do they not have the capability to scan large-format films?




BTW, regarding audio...

I don't think one needs to scrap the French 5.1 to present the original soundtrack. Think of Return of the King...a DVD that has several 5.1 DD soundtracks *and* a DTS track that eats up about twice the bandwidth of a DD track...and the picture quality is stunning.

I think that Ben-Hur could probably have been carefully mastered with 3 5.1 DD tracks...or perhaps just demote the French track to 2.0 if it was really compromising things with three 5.1. However...other studios/titles have done it effectively with great results so it's hard for me to just assume that Warner Brother's titles are somehow vastly different to encode than everyone else's.

 

[ScottR]

One could only guess how upset and confused people would be if Gone With the Wind had been released on dvd in its original look....."What is that yellow and brown tint to everything?"

 

[mark brown]

I do not wish to "beat this poor horse to the ground" but as a newcomer to this site, I concur with Mr. Harris that the way to obtain this disc is by purchasing in the lobby of your favorite 70mm movie palace venue.
Like many of you, some of my earliest memories date back to seeing Ben Hur. Whether it was at the local second-run Bijou or, in later years, seeing the film in its roadshow splendor, the excitement never left! Having a record of the experience on this very commendable disc sweetens the nogstalgia.
It is for this very reason I have a difficult time discussing the film as a dvd which is nothing more than a mere record of the original experience. This is not to diminish the dvd effort, which I believe is of videophile quality if one's point of reference is realistic.
I shudder to think of comparing this movie milestone with a film like The Matrix or Moulin Rouge. If one simply seeks video nirvana in reference quality demo discs, might I suggest The Lion King in all of its animation glory.
Shouldn't the focus be on restoring the film the way it was meant to be seen. Let's all hope that Grover Crisp is listening and allows Mr. Harris to restore other great large format films like The Alamo. Oh yeah, I will gladly buy that disc in the lobby also. mdb

 

[DaViD Boulet]

With all due respect, I think the issue has been that the 65mm large-format elements revealed much more detail than the DVD captures...less than the DVD format is capable of delivering because of the manner in which the film-tape transfer had been done. In other words, the DVD could have come closer to the "way it was meant to be seen" than it currently does.

Can *any* DVD achieve the goal of replicating a 65mm theatrical projection? No--the dvd format is inferior by definition. Can it come closer than this DVD does? Yes.

I think that the relevance of this discussion pertains to any current or future HD master of Ben-Hur...because if the problems with the video stem from a film-tape transfer, then those same problems would compromise a 1080P viewing.

Remember Lawrence of Arabia? The visible edge-ringing turned out to be inherent to the original film-tape transfer...and so even the new HD version shows the same ringing evident in the super-bit DVD...not exactly what I'd hope to see when I go to lose myself in the glory of a 1080P transfer of such a classic film.

Good to raise these issues now while HD media are in their infancy...we don't want to be still debating these artifacts years down the road after the studios have already spent $$$ on film-tape HD transfers of all our classic titles that were compromised from the very start.

 

[ScottR]

Maybe it's just me, but I was so into the story and the acting, that I didn't notice the technical aspects of the presentation. I'm a perfectionist, but I am totally happy with this release. Thanks, WB!

 

[Steve Christou]

My Ben-Hur set finally arrived today. After reading various posts and threads on the forum about how this new copy of my favorite movie isn't much of an improvement on the old and that the colour was a bit off, I feared the worst. My fears were unfounded, the PQ and colours were gorgeous. I fully concur with Mr.Harris first post on this thread,
"A magnificent DVD of a magnificent film".

 

[frank manrique]

"As I have stated on other threads, I personally prefer more centered dialogue on directional mixes. The extreme directionality of the early CinemaScope mixes in particular do not decode properly on my system because of the (unavoidable) placement of my main speakers in my 5.1 set-up. I think two mixes would be a nice compromise to satisfy everybody, if it were feasible."

Watching something like Around The World In 80 Days--which thank God has directional Stereo spread (just hear that British Military band scene: what a terrific sonic effect!)--on a 12 foot wide screen (our "big" HT system) works like a miniature cinema: simply great! And it does so even with the main L&R speakers separated at that distance (they border the edges of the screen's frame), altough a better screen material, which allows sound to come through (not perforated either) unaltered, will be even better since both the mains and center channel transducers will be at the same height and a bit closer to each other.

But even when watching flicks on the 40" Sony CRT-based display device (our "small" HT system) things sound great when they maintain their original Stereo directional spread if so recorded and mixed.

I simply detest film soundtracks so centralized that truly belie description (might as well listen to them in mono!). Something akin to the fairly recent remake of ROB ROY, which was simply and utterly ridiculously sounding at the cinema, illustrates my point...though granted it seems that sonically fares a bit better at home...

-THTS

 

[frank manrique]

"One thing for sure, it will look better than the best upconverted DVD that's blown up on a big screen and no visible upconversion flaws."
__________________________________________________ _____

You betacha! And is for that reason that I'm impatiently awaiting to see a broadcast of Ben-Hur in Hi-Def by the HDNet Movies channel or whomever else might want to be the first to air this magnificent widescreen epic...

-THTS

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Frank,

Agreed and Agreed.

 

[frank manrique]

Just to corroborate about what is being said about Mutiny on the Bounty...it was photographed in Ultra-Panavision...just like Ben-Hur, The Greatest Story Ever Told, The Fall of the Roman Empire, The Halellujah Trail, It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World...and even some scenes in How The West Was Won...

-THTS

 

[GerardoHP]

Does anyone know if the 70mm print of BEN HUR that's been shown at the Cinerama Dome in Los Angeles in the last 10 years (I assume it's the same print) is a rectified UP print?

I would love to see this on the giant Dome screen which otherwise distorts just about everything (other than Cinerama) that's projected on it.

 

[Roger Rollins]

The last 70mm print of BEN-HUR (which indeed played the Dome many years ago) I read no longer exists as it was trashed by a careless projectionist.

It was not Camera 65 (Ultra-Panavision) and eliminated much side info.

The color was pretty good, but nothing like what I remember seeing as a kid when the film was reissued in 1969. Then again, That was 36 years ago, and I was a tot, but when I saw the afore-mentioned print in the late '80s, I was very disapppointed. It had a lot of hiss in the soundtrack, and was about 2.20 in A/R.

Since Warner has made new 65mm preservation elements on this film, let's hope we'll get proper new prints in 70mm someday, although this may be a pipe dream. I hear 70mm printing is near extinction. I hope I've heard wrong

Meanwhile, on another note, those who want to see epics on the screen as they were meant to be seen can rejoice. I heard today that HOW THE WEST WAS WON will return for a full week in true Cinerama at the one and only Cinerama dome some time in the next few weeks. I went twice when they showed it before, and I will go at least twice again.
Warner did a gorgeous job on the new print...and OH that 7 Channel sound!

 

[GerardoHP]

Thanks, Roger. That's what I thought.

And that's great about HOW THE WEST WAS WON coming back. That's the best way to put that huge curved screen to use.

 

[frank manrique]

Ben-Hur was shown in the Los Angeles area a few years back (can't remember the cinema venue right now)...and the rumor has it that one of the projected 70mm prints actually belongs to Mr. Heston, who was also in attendance (at least the first night anyway).
On the other hand...the rumor also has it that what was actually shown was an IB Tech 35mm reduction print.
Oh, how I regret not finding out sooner!

The '69 reissues of this majestic film epic were all spherical 70mm prints, with an AR of about 2:00:1...obviously cropping the heck out of it. Might as well see it "panned and scanned," yes?...

-THTS

 

[Robert Harris]

70mm printing is alive and well, alas mostly in 15 perf.

Currently both CFI and FotoKem are printing large format.

RAH

 

[RobertR]

I was at that showing, Frank, and it was specifically stated that it was a 35 mm print.

 

[Darren Gross]

On the subject of fairly recent Los Angeles screenings of Ben-Hur, I wanted to offer this clarification.

The last week before the Dome closed (it was thought it was going to be demolished at the time, and thankfully cooler heads prevailed and it has remained) a few years back (within the last 3-5 years) they showed Ben-Hur and a few of the favorite films screened at the Dome.

There were a couple screenings of Ben-Hur. On day 1 Heston was there I believe. I went there on the second day and what they screened was a very nice 70mm print. They host told how they were informed at the last minute that only a 35mm print was available but when they arrived in the morning that day or the day before, a new 70mm print had been delivered, courtesy of Dick May at Warners. Supposedly it was a new print or had been returned from overseas where it had last screened. Either or, it was definitely 70mm and looked terrific. Not opening day, but terrific and fairly blemish free. And the sound was incredible.

 

[frank manrique]

"70mm printing is alive and well, alas mostly in 15 perf."

...and with either theatrical DTS or Dolby digital soundtracks to boot, I believe; no more analog magnetic soundtracks, or so it seems...

-THTS

 

[John Hodson]

I'm more than happy with Ben-Hur (both of them), to my eyes and ears, it's a lovely presentation of the two films with some excellent extras at an affordable price. But 'The Laser Examiner' has given it a black eye here (part 2 of a good kicking for Warners products in particular - the first part is here. Ouch!)