A Few Words About A few words about...™ Tora Tora Tora -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Rick Thompson]

As the planes fly low over military buildings, battleships, aircraft carriers, etc. our presumed idiot military appears to be watching an air show.  These are Japanese planes!  Two officers suggest that for flying low they should be reported.  "Get that fellas number!"  The leader of a military band just continues on, finally realizing that something might be up, and has the band play faster, just before bullets and bombs fly.
RAH

Regarding the "watching an air show," that was actually quite accurate. I was present at an interview of retired Capt. Joseph Taussig, who was officer of the deck aboard USS Nevada on December 7, 1941 (he was then an ensign). When the first Japanese plane dropped its torpedo, he said his reaction was, "It will be interesting to watch them dig that out." Everyone on the bridge knew Pearl Harbor was too shallow for torpedoes and so it would get stuck in the mud; the salvage work would be interesting to watch. Of course, the Japanese had solved that problem. Within seconds, said Taussig, "I saw the meatballs on the wings and it was like a kaleidoscope -- everything happened at once."
As for the national anthem, two notes: (a) morning (and evening) colors and the anthem are taken VERY seriously on military bases, and (b) musicians follow the conductor and don't stop until the conductor stops them. The combination of military and musical discipline were much in evidence. They wouldn't stop until the job was done.
And yes, that last quote is a Hollywood invention (director Fleischer admits his authorship in the supplement documentary), but it is a quote that Yamamoto would have totally agreed with. He was completely against war with the U.S., and was later appalled to learn that the declaration of war had followed the attack, not preceded it. He knew that, indeed, "nothing could infuriate the Americans more."

 

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Rick Thompson /t/316847/a-few-words-about-tora-tora-tora-in-blu-ray#post_3878345
Regarding the "watching an air show," that was actually quite accurate. I was present at an interview of retired Capt. Joseph Taussig, who was officer of the deck aboard USS Nevada on December 7, 1941 (he was then an ensign). When the first Japanese plane dropped its torpedo, he said his reaction was, "It will be interesting to watch them dig that out." Everyone on the bridge knew Pearl Harbor was too shallow for torpedoes and so it would get stuck in the mud; the salvage work would be interesting to watch. Of course, the Japanese had solved that problem. Within seconds, said Taussig, "I saw the meatballs on the wings and it was like a kaleidoscope -- everything happened at once."
As for the national anthem, two notes: (a) morning (and evening) colors and the anthem are taken VERY seriously on military bases, and (b) musicians follow the conductor and don't stop until the conductor stops them. The combination of military and musical discipline were much in evidence. They wouldn't stop until the job was done.
And yes, that last quote is a Hollywood invention (director Fleischer admits his authorship in the supplement documentary), but it is a quote that Yamamoto would have totally agreed with. He was completely against war with the U.S., and was later appalled to learn that the declaration of war had followed the attack, not preceded it. He knew that, indeed, "nothing could infuriate the Americans more."

Once again, truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. Thank you for your words.

RAH

 

[Colin Jacobson]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris /t/316847/a-few-words-about-tora-tora-tora-in-blu-ray#post_3877822

As is the norm, Fox presents the film as a beautifully produced Blu-ray, and for this new release makes available the Japanese version, that runs 154 minutes, in addition to the domestic.

154 minutes? My player says the Extended Cut clocks in at 2:28:53...

 

[benbess]

http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/Theapproaching70th.Annive.html
"A piece by James Bowen about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
....When it comes to historical accuracy, I have a serious problem with the Japanese contribution to the film. The Japanese account contains two major falsifications of history that appear to be intended to mislead viewers by minimising Japan's and Hirohito's war guilt in relation to Pearl Harbor. With the apparent intention of disguising the treacherous nature of the Japanese sneak attack on Pearl Harbour in peacetime and at 8.00 am on a Sunday morning (Hawaii Time), the Japanese producers suggest that Japan intended to submit a 14-part document containing a formal declaration of war to the American Secretary of State, Mr Cordell Hull, at 1.00 pm on December 7 (Washington Time). At 1.00 pm in Washington it would be 7.30 am in Hawaii and half an hour before the Japanese planes were scheduled to strike Pearl Harbor. The film suggests that tendering of this formal "declaration of war" at 1.00 pm was frustrated by decoding and clerical delays in the Japanese embassy in Washington. Such delays may have occurred, but the Japanese document eventually submitted to Secretary of State Hull at 2.20 pm on December 7 (eighty minutes after the first Japanese bomb fell on Hawaii) was not a formal declaration of war. It was not even an ultimatum. It was merely a summary of Japanese grievances and demands, coupled with a blunt announcement that Japan was terminating the lengthy diplomatic negotiations between Ambassador Nomura and Secretary of State, Cordell Hull. On two occasions in the film, Admiral Yamamoto and his staff officers refer to the 14-part document as a "declaration of war" which it clearly was not. Japan formally declared war on the United States several hours after the last Japanese aircraft had returned to its carrier from the smoking ruins of the American battleship fleet at Pearl Harbor.
The Japanese contribution to "Tora! Tora! Tora!" also falsely represents Emperor Hirohito as a benign figurehead commander of Japan's military who approved the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor because he was powerless to stop it. In a conversation prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor between Prime Minister Konoye and Admiral Yamamoto, Konoye is heard to say: "His Majesty's signature is a mere formality. The Cabinet is responsible for all matters of national policy." Both statements are untrue. Under the Meiji Constitution of 1889, Hirohito could have overridden his cabinet on any issue and refused to authorise the attack on Pearl Harbor had he wanted to do so.
The 148 minute version of "Tora! Tora! Tora!" that was intended initially only for Japanese audiences takes the "white washing" of Hirohito's war guilt even further. The only significant aspect of the added ten minutes for Japanese audiences is a conversation between Admiral Yamamoto and a senior palace official in the Imperial Palace. The palace official falsely represents Hirohito as having been opposed to war with the United States but powerless to stop it. A study of Japanese history, and especially the Meiji Constitution, will reveal that the Meiji Constitution vested full control of the Japanese armed forces in the emperor, and the chiefs of Japan's military reported directly to the emperor and not to the civilian government. The fact that Hirohito was a "hands on" commander in chief with his military attaches active on every Pacific War front and briefing him daily is confirmed by Japan's official history of the Pacific War "Senshi Sosho" and by historian Professor Herbert P. Bix in his authoritative Pulitzer Prize-winning biography "Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan" (2000), especially at pages 327, 329-331, 359, and 387-391.
I hope these historical falsifications contrived by the Japanese producers will not spoil anyone's enjoyment of a film that I still regard as a masterful account of an appalling act of treachery..."

 

[larryKR]

What's amazing to me is that Marshall and Stark didn't simply call their commanders at Pearl Harbor.

The revisionist historians have an answer for this. They would have you believe that the Roosevelt administration knew about the forthcoming attack beforehand, but because they wanted to bring the United States into World War 2, they kept this information from the commanders at Pearl Harbor. This is discussed in the documentary "Day of Infamy" in the special features.
I choose not to believe this, but rather the film's version of events.

 

[benbess]

....I'd also love to see it make an appearance on Blu-ray, but as it's difficult to get some of the top Bogart films into the marketplace, we may have to live with the standard def DVD, which is in print, at $6.49.
RAH

Off topic, I know...
I'm watching right now on netflix steaming Bogart's fine late performance in The Barefoot Contessa (1954). It's in HD, and looks pretty good. A bit blurry and DNRed, perhaps, but still good. But no blu-ray of this one yet. And it was one of the top 6 films at the box office that year...
6. The Barefoot Contessa MGM Humphrey Bogart, Ava Gardner, and Edmond O'Brien $7,298,000

 

[David_B_K]

A great may lives were lost at Pearl Harbor, and what troubles me is that I don't find it in any way, well...
funny.
RAH

This is a little off-topic; but I find the attempts at humor even more annoying in The Longest Day. Every 10 minutes or so, something cute or humorous is depicted which undercuts the seriousness of the movie (probably the reason they included them all). The "funny" moments may have occurred on D-Day; but they were over-emphasized IMO; with Sean Connery's "Flanagan the Irishman" stepping off into water over his head being the least funny thing in the movie.
Maybe it's a Fox thing with some of their war movies?

 

[ahollis]

Ok, I got the UK version on Blu a year ago (could not wait). I at first understood that the transfers were identical, then on some other "forums" I read that the UK version was very EE, which I did not notice (so I guess this post is worthless), while the new US release is not and much superior. Now the question is has anyone seen both transfers and think the US is an improvement. I do trust the the posters, readers, and reviewer of the forum more than I do any others.

Thanks.

 

[Geo Gabor]

Mr. Harris -
First, thanks for your views and analyses of the movies that you provide in this forum. I appreciate your contributions to the field of cinematography and hope to continue reading your posts for a long time to come.
I wanted to toss out the following to you as you might be a sympathetic ear who could have some influence in the industry. I made mention of this in the official HTF review of Tora! Tora! Tora! but wanted to mention it here directly to you. I have a 2.35:1 home theater setup. The placement of the subtitles in this Blu-Ray (and others) makes it so that I can't watch the movie, as the subtitles are partially off of my screen. As Tora! Tora! Tora! is one of my favorite WW2 movies, it is particularly annoying to not be able to watch the Blu-Ray version.
I realize that I represent a very small minority of home-theater aficionados, but it bewilders me that Fox or any other studio (such as Sony) would purposefully engineer a disc that any segment of their consumer base would not be able to watch. I don't know what specific ties you have to the studios and their representatives, but perhaps you could mention to any powers that be that they are missing out on some sales as a result of this seemingly random decision on the placement of their subtitles? It seems that at the very least, it would be rather easy to encode a disc so that the user could dictate where the subtitles are placed on the screen.
I am disappointed in Fox; Frankly, I hope that they are also disappointed in selling one fewer copy of this Blu-Ray than they otherwise would have.
Thanks for your consideration, and keep up the good work that you do!

 

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Geo Gabor /t/316847/a-few-words-about-tora-tora-tora-in-blu-ray#post_3885232
Mr. Harris -
First, thanks for your views and analyses of the movies that you provide in this forum. I appreciate your contributions to the field of cinematography and hope to continue reading your posts for a long time to come.
I wanted to toss out the following to you as you might be a sympathetic ear who could have some influence in the industry. I made mention of this in the official HTF review of Tora! Tora! Tora! but wanted to mention it here directly to you. I have a 2.35:1 home theater setup. The placement of the subtitles in this Blu-Ray (and others) makes it so that I can't watch the movie, as the subtitles are partially off of my screen. As Tora! Tora! Tora! is one of my favorite WW2 movies, it is particularly annoying to not be able to watch the Blu-Ray version.
I realize that I represent a very small minority of home-theater aficionados, but it bewilders me that Fox or any other studio (such as Sony) would purposefully engineer a disc that any segment of their consumer base would not be able to watch. I don't know what specific ties you have to the studios and their representatives, but perhaps you could mention to any powers that be that they are missing out on some sales as a result of this seemingly random decision on the placement of their subtitles? It seems that at the very least, it would be rather easy to encode a disc so that the user could dictate where the subtitles are placed on the screen.
I am disappointed in Fox; Frankly, I hope that they are also disappointed in selling one fewer copy of this Blu-Ray than they otherwise would have.
Thanks for your consideration, and keep up the good work that you do!

While I don't know what hardware you're using for playback, I can tell you that the Oppo players have a function via which sub-titles can be moved vertically.

This is neither Fox nor Sony, which both do superb work. The title positions are all player based. Please consult your manual.

RAH

 

[Geo Gabor]

While I don't know what hardware you're using for playback, I can tell you that the Oppo players have a function via which sub-titles can be moved vertically.
This is neither Fox nor Sony, which both do superb work.  The title positions are all player based.  Please consult your manual.
RAH

Thanks, Mr. Harris, for your reply. I'm using either a Panasonic DMP-BD55 or an LG BD630. Neither of these players have the subtitle-moving functionality that you mentioned. In fact, of the players whose manuals I've checked since reading your post, only the Oppo seems to have that feature. I will keep checking, hoping that a less expensive model will fit my needs.
And although I know that Fox and Sony are both great studios in the Blu-Ray market, I believe that while a player can affect where a subtitle is located on the screen, some of that information must be coming from the disc itself. Otherwise, all of my blu-rays would place the subtitles in the same location. Yet, it's only a few discs that have the subtitles outside of the image frame. Lord of the Rings, for example, has the subtitles inside the image frame, as does The Longest Day, just to name a couple. Tora Tora Tora, The Professionals, and Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon are examples of films that have the subtitles outside of the image. Of course, this is an issue only for movies that are wider than 16:9.
Regardless, I am heartened to know that there's a workaround to the situation, expensive though it might be. Thanks again for taking the time to respond!

 

[Christian Preischl]

Ultimately, the look, size and placement of subtitles is primarily down to each individual studio. It's not that the player generates these subtitles itself, it simply shows whatever was put on disc. The problem is that when studios replace burnt-in subtitles with player-generated one, most of them simply use the same default font and placement setting that they use for all other subtitles on their discs (such as English for Hard of Hearing or foreign language subtitles).
Sony is the same as Fox in that regard in that their standard placement is not "compatible" with 2.35:1 films. US Sony DVDs even used to have these subtitles in yellow simply because that was their default color for player-generated subtitles. It's an annoying habit and I wish studios would take the proper care when doing these. You'll also find that whenever a voice is off screen, BDs and DVDs of many studios show the corresponding dialogue in italics because that's their default mode for Hard-of-hearing subs. Doesn't make much sense though when replacing burnt-in Foreign language dialogue subs with player generated ones.

 

[JoHud]

MGM's Annie Hall DVD also runs into similar problems with replacing the burned-in subtitles for subtitles for the hearing impaired, leading to that baffling [Thinking] caption.

 

[Jim Reid]

I have read as much as I could find on Pearl Harbor, including Gordon Prange's books, which were the basis for Tora, Tora, Tora.
I think it really did get the history right. As for the wooden acting. It really doesn't bother me. I find it lens a touch of realism.
This is especially true when you compare it to another film made just six years later. Midway got it's history right also. But it's diffferent in two ways. First, Universal made Midway as more of a star vehicle, with Charlton Heston, Henry Fonda, James Coburn, Glen Ford, etc. They also had the Heston-Edward Albert storyline. These were at the expense of telling the true story.
Then there was the much cheaper production by Universal. Much of the footage used was from Tora, Tora, Tora (including a pan of a Japanese plane supposedly attacking Midway Island, with a tripod mast battleship in the background). When the Midway production had to come up with their own shots, we got laughably bad model work. We also got stock shots of U.S. angle decked (for jets) post war carriers that were supposed to be Japanese.
If you really want to learn to appreaciate Tora, Tora, Tora, take a look at Midway.

 

[JNagarya]

Right. Our military is never stupid. There were a series of blunders leading up to the attack on Pearl Harbor which weren't made on the Japanese -- stupid -- side. They were made on the US side.
I'm sure if you actually think about it, you'll come up with additional instances of our military being stupid.
(I could begin with Colin Powell at the UN greasing the skids for the throwing away of US troops in the fraudulent Iraq war. But that was less stupidity than it was raw partisan politics -- and moral cowardice -- in support of stupidity.)

 

[Robin9]

Right. Our military is never stupid. There were a series of blunders leading up to the attack on Pearl Harbor which weren't made on the Japanese -- stupid -- side. They were made on the US side.
I'm sure if you actually think about it, you'll come up with additional instances of our military being stupid.
(I could begin with Colin Powell at the UN greasing the skids for the throwing away of US troops in the fraudulent Iraq war. But that was less stupidity than it was raw partisan politics -- and moral cowardice -- in support of stupidity.)

This is your first post in this forum. I hope your next post will have something to do with movies and/or home theatre.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Let's cease any summaries that will lead this thread into
political conversation that is strictly forbidden here.

 

[Kosty]

Attracted here because of the new post, so I'll try to reboot the conversation.
Just picked up this title on Blu-ray and have not watched it yet on that format yet, so I won't say anything specific on the transfer.
But on the plot and the "stupid Americans" I had to say that I actually thought as a former military officer and avid military historian that to me those plot elements were pretty fairly portrayed as a whole. The flight instructor, the initial thoughts the attacking planes were friendly, the mis communications of the radar reports and the minisub attack and the routine cable not given priority all were things that really happened.
Part of that was the false sense of security that Pearl Harbor was too shallow for torpedo attack but also the general thought that the Japanese were just incapable of taking a huge risk to their fleet to come close enough to attack the base at all. It was also just assumed that an air strike would not be that effective to completely disable the formidable air assets that were on hand at the many airfields nearby. Part was arrogance the other was poor decision making from a military still on a peace time mindset. (sabotage being a risk more likely to happen than a massive air assault without warning).
Some of the reactions to the attack were astonishment as in the opening seconds or minutes many officers and men just could not mentally process what was happening. Its entirely plausible for me as an officer on the ground seeing a low flying plane my instant first reaction would be it was an American plane doing something stupid until I was jarred into action seeing it was an hostile plane shooting or dropping bombs or torpedoes.
Sure the acting is so so, but the film is still a treat and a spectacle with real planes doing stuff and as a military guy who has been in a two way situation I can tell you that confusion at the beginning of a situation is pretty common and under the circumstances understandable.
The one thing that I think the movie is a bit inaccurate in is historically the American defenses around the fleet and the airbases for anti aircraft did actually ramp up pretty quickly. The last Japanese attack wave suffered a lot more casualties than the first and the Japanese fleet commander legitimately had a concern that the American aircraft carriers were somewhere around to counter strike.
Even with the revisionist aspect of the Japanese story line. one thing I liked was the honest portrayal of the Japanese military officers and men doing a professional job in the service of their country. That was appreciated by me just like it was in Das Boot or Stalingrad etc as opposed to the enemy just being bad guys and targets like most war movies tend to frame the opponents on the other side.

 

[Rick Thompson]

Some of the reactions to the attack were astonishment as in the opening seconds or minutes many officers and men just could not mentally process what was happening. Its entirely plausible for me as an officer on the ground seeing a low flying plane my instant first reaction would be it was an American plane doing something stupid until I was jarred into action seeing it was an hostile plane shooting or dropping bombs or torpedoes.

Absolutely right! That's exactly what happened.
I heard Joseph K. Taussig Jr., who was officer of the deck on USS Nevada that morning, being interviewed and he described how he saw the first plane drop a torpedo: "I thought how we'd have something to look at all day, them digging that torpedo out of the mud. Then I saw the meatball on the wings and it was like a kaleidoscope -- everything happened at once."

 

[Kosty]

Back in my youth as a young cadet, I had a chance to escort some Pearl Harbor survivors and spend an afternoon with them.
Some were those that actually saw the start of the attack and they all said they assumed at first they were American planes doing maneuvers, either Army planes just trying to harass the Navy folks as service rivalry or carrier based planes doing wargames.
Even though they said they new tensions with Japan were rising the idea that the war would start with the Japanese crossing thousands of miles of ocean to first attack with a massive assault at Pearl Harbor was just unthinkable before it happened. It just took a few moments for their brains to adjust that it was actually happening.