A Few Words About A few words about...™ The Ten Commandments -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Robert Harris]

Agreed. There is little (virtually nothing) to be gained from higher resolution in the home environment. In terms of higher capacity media, most entities are not using what is available to them on Blu-ray. As to hardware, a recent excursion into passing through 2k signals seems to fit into the sizzle "halo" category. Processors have enough problems passing HDMI 1.4.


RAH

 

[Cinescott]

Originally Posted by benbess

My guess is that blu-ray is the end of the line for the physical format, but I could be wrong...

It very well may be, but I simply can't get my head around everyone simply tying into a massive database (and yes, I know it's 'possible'). Look at the interactivity made possibly by Blu Ray. No one's going to miss that? How's any of this going to be possible with streaming video? Are we going to keep seamless branching, multiple audio options, commentaries, chapter breaks, documentary features, etc.? Won't there always be a demand/market for this? Are people going to simply "accept" a mediocre level of service from a media "distributor"? I tried Netflix's streaming service for a month and hated it. The quality was simply awful. Even if it were to improve, it'd be a step down from what Blu Ray has to offer.


I know I have a more vested interest in these matters than most, but I have little to no faith in the so-called "quality" of major cable/satellite companies today. Why would they suddenly get better in 5 years or so? I still believe that over the long run, market forces drive the availability of commodities like home media. If the quality of a new product isn't better than before, it'll have a hard time taking hold. Look at Blu-Ray's start for example. It's had a perceived "lack of improvement" stigma over DVD for a while now, regardless of whether it's true. That stigma has been hard to overcome and has slowed the format's growth. The same will be true of streamed media. People will say "how is this better?" Convenience, yes. Is that all? Is that enough for a complete paradigm shift in home entertainment? Although I've never underestimated the greed of studios in matters such as this, there may not be as much gold at the end of this rainbow as so many seem to think there will be.

My educated guess is that physical media will stay in the future, but at a lower volume and higher cost than today. There will always be "collectors" and people who like the personal pleasure gained through ownership rather than permanent rental. I've been a collector all my life and enjoy it tremendously. I'd feel sad if the market withdrew one of the avenues that currently provides me with so much personal enjoyment.


Sorry for the rant. This probably belongs in its own thread

 

[Matt Hough]

The possible end to physical media is one reason I'm so committed to collecting as many discs as I can of movies that I really care about. If in the future there are no longer any discs being issued, I will have a healthy library to fall back on. It's one reason why I'm so anxious to get as many classics as possible on Blu-ray. (And, of course, should this come about, I'd stock up on Blu-ray players, too, just as I did with laserdisc players when that was obviously at the end of the line.)

 

[benbess]

Originally Posted by Cinescott





It very well may be, but I simply can't get my head around everyone simply tying into a massive database (and yes, I know it's 'possible'). Look at the interactivity made possibly by Blu Ray. No one's going to miss that? How's any of this going to be possible with streaming video? Are we going to keep seamless branching, multiple audio options, commentaries, chapter breaks, documentary features, etc.? Won't there always be a demand/market for this? Are people going to simply "accept" a mediocre level of service from a media "distributor"? I tried Netflix's streaming service for a month and hated it. The quality was simply awful. Even if it were to improve, it'd be a step down from what Blu Ray has to offer.


I know I have a more vested interest in these matters than most, but I have little to no faith in the so-called "quality" of major cable/satellite companies today. Why would they suddenly get better in 5 years or so? I still believe that over the long run, market forces drive the availability of commodities like home media. If the quality of a new product isn't better than before, it'll have a hard time taking hold. Look at Blu-Ray's start for example. It's had a perceived "lack of improvement" stigma over DVD for a while now, regardless of whether it's true. That stigma has been hard to overcome and has slowed the format's growth. The same will be true of streamed media. People will say "how is this better?" Convenience, yes. Is that all? Is that enough for a complete paradigm shift in home entertainment? Although I've never underestimated the greed of studios in matters such as this, there may not be as much gold at the end of this rainbow as so many seem to think there will be.

My educated guess is that physical media will stay in the future, but at a lower volume and higher cost than today. There will always be "collectors" and people who like the personal pleasure gained through ownership rather than permanent rental. I've been a collector all my life and enjoy it tremendously. I'd feel sad if the market withdrew one of the avenues that currently provides me with so much personal enjoyment.


Sorry for the rant. This probably belongs in its own thread

I think blu-ray will survive as a significant part of the home market for a long time to come. My guess is that in a few years maybe as much as 50% of people in the US will have blu-ray players at home. All I was meaning to say is that I don't think we'll have "blu-ray2" or whatever....


You make some excellent points.


I have to say, however, that the pq of watching HD streaming through our PS3 and netflix is pretty good. We do have very high speed internet at our home to support that. Although actually we have it not for that but for my wife's work. Anyway, it is NOT blu-ray, and I can tell that, but short of that it is a nicer quality presentation than a DVD most of the time. And compared to broadcast TV that I saw when I was a kid (and I still enjoyed that!) it's just miles beyond...

 

[marsnkc]

Originally Posted by MattH.

The possible end to physical media is one reason I'm so committed to collecting as many discs as I can of movies that I really care about. If in the future there are no longer any discs being issued, I will have a healthy library to fall back on. It's one reason why I'm so anxious to get as many classics as possible on Blu-ray. (And, of course, should this come about, I'd stock up on Blu-ray players, too, just as I did with laserdisc players when that was obviously at the end of the line.)

I've always derided end-of-the-world, armageddon, bunker mentality types (remember the millenium stock-piling, even of arms?), yet, when it comes to movies, I'm probably more paranoid than the most fearful of them, and why I also 'stockpile' DVDs against the inevitable day when streaming is all there is, and nervously hold my breath until I have my most cherished movies on Blu in my grubby little hands. Matt's concern about players is also right on the mark. I have some movies on laserdisc that are still not available - or watchable (like Paramount's official widescreen One-Eyed Jacks) - on DVD. A few months ago I tried to crank up the player, after a decade of lying idle. After many attempts to get it to load up and play (the screeching of the motor was painful to hear!) I gave up and went on the net to see if there were any for sale. What used models are out there are in a pathetic condition - and so dirty I wouldn't touch one with the proverbial 40-foot pole - so the following day I tried to fire it up again. After a half hour of trying, I was literally on my last attempt when it mercifully kicked in. So stocking a spare player (and running it every so often!) was a smart move.


I share Scott's (#81) concern at the idea of accessing movies from some database (the words 'cloud-based' worry me even more!). With the astonishing advances in computing speeds, I've no doubt that quality will continue to improve (though most people, in my experience, don't much care. The 'stigma' that blu-ray is not much of an advance over DVD was borne out by my niece, who couldn't discern any difference between what I thought would blow her away with what DVDs offered through her 'large' 32" set), but I'll bet no one can guarantee that everything previously released will be on it, or that the platform will be invulnerable to breakdown or attack.

He makes an excellent case for why streaming will/should never compensate for the advantages of blu-ray, but he's arguing from the point of view of 'fanatics' like me who want movies to look as good as they possibly can. No friends of mine would dream of (or their wives allow) ploughing even 10% of the money I've invested into achieving that goal, and while most marvel at the resulting image and sound, they view movies as a passing entertainment on the order of a TV show. They go back to their nice, spacious living rooms, uncluttered by large, unsightly monitors, full-range speakers, processors, amps and attendant wires, not to mention tons of 'media' that wouldn't bear repeated viewing by them.


A former girl-friend loved the 'live' aspect of TV, and while she couldn't sit still for a movie in a cinema or on DVD, she could suffer one being broadcast 'live', with the feeling (my take!) of it being shared by millions of others - not to mention those welcome commercial breaks to break the tedium. Part of this could be explained by a stressful job, but most of it, I think, from ingrained habit and a rapidly declining attention span. Gabrie Byrne noted recently that not many today would sit still for the time it takes Omar Sharif to appear as a 'mirage' to his arrival at the well. After a few seconds, he said, they would complain - "Enough, already. We get the point!"

I agree with Ben (#83) that we most likely will never see a Blu-ray2 (though, thankfully, RAH insists there's no need for one), but I'm not so sure that Blu will reach 50% penetration before streaming becomes ubiqitous. It's what (understandably) the money men at the studios want, those mentioned above want, and Netflix and your Amazons find easier and more profitable to deliver.

 

[Mark-P]

While there is unlikely to ever be another HD disc format, Blu-ray will continue to evolve the same way Laserdisc did. Already they have bumped it up to 3D, and after Peter Jackson's The Hobbit comes out at 48 fps, there will likely be a new version of Blu-ray player that will be able to handle movies shot with higher frame-rates.

 

[Cinescott]

Originally Posted by marsnkc
Gabrie Byrne noted recently that not many today would sit still for the time it takes Omar Sharif to appear as a 'mirage' to his arrival at the well. After a few seconds, he said, they would complain - "Enough, already. We get the point!"

I suddenly feel incredibly old.

 

[Rick Thompson]

You're assuming that it makes enough money -- and enough of that money is attributable to the better viewing experience, if indeed it IS a better viewing experience -- for the studios to take on the extra expense. Sometimes it does (Cinemascope, VistaVision) and sometimes it doesn't (Todd-AO).

 

[Douglas Monce]

Originally Posted by benbess






I think blu-ray will survive as a significant part of the home market for a long time to come. My guess is that in a few years maybe as much as 50% of people in the US will have blu-ray players at home. All I was meaning to say is that I don't think we'll have "blu-ray2" or whatever....


You make some excellent points.


I have to say, however, that the pq of watching HD streaming through our PS3 and netflix is pretty good. We do have very high speed internet at our home to support that. Although actually we have it not for that but for my wife's work. Anyway, it is NOT blu-ray, and I can tell that, but short of that it is a nicer quality presentation than a DVD most of the time. And compared to broadcast TV that I saw when I was a kid (and I still enjoyed that!) it's just miles beyond...

I think we are actually not far from that number now. The problem is that most of those blu-ray players, and most DVD players for that matter, are coming with streaming services like netflix and vudo built in. I read recently that in the U.S. almost 60% of internet traffic in the prime time hours, are directly related to streaming, be it music, movies or tv shows.


Honestly I think most people who are buying blu-ray players now are using them for streaming, and buying just a few big movies that they want to keep. I don't think your going to be seeing the kind of collecting by the general public that was going on 10 years ago again.


Doug

 

[ahollis]

Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I read recently that in the U.S. almost 60% of internet traffic in the prime time hours, are directly related to streaming, be it music, movies or tv shows.

The question I have is what will the cost for streaming be in the future. I have a very strong feeling that the internet companies will start some form of charging by the amount of time you use for streaming. As streaming grows could there not be an overload? Isn't Comcast already limiting the amount of time someone can stream? While I think that streaming will become a force in home entertainment, I do think it will come at a monetary cost. I am not sure I want to pay a rental plus a streaming charge.

Boy we really got off the Ten Commandments topic of this thread and my apologizes. I will go quietly,

 

[marsnkc]

Originally Posted by ahollis





The question I have is what will the cost for streaming be in the future. I have a very strong feeling that the internet companies will start some form of charging by the amount of time you use for streaming. As streaming grows could there not be an overload? Isn't Comcast already limiting the amount of time someone can stream? While I think that streaming will become a force in home entertainment, I do think it will come at a monetary cost. I am not sure I want to pay a rental plus a streaming charge.

Boy we really got off the Ten Commandments topic of this thread and my apologizes. I will go quietly,

My turn to apologize for continuing this - hope RAH doesn't mind. Your remarks on Comcast are exactly what I fear about delivery services re restrictions and cost. Even worse, what about corporate stability? I'd hate to look forward to something and be confronted with a blank screen because yet another entity has bitten the dust, or a company has been hit by some event beyond its control. Too many things to go wrong for comfort, but it's as inevitable as death and taxes. Hopefully, as with laserdiscs, enough people will be willing to pay a premium for blu-ray to continue as a profitable niche market - a lower volume at a higher price, as Scott says.

 

[Cinescott]

Streaming's going to be huge. Let's just hope that blu ray keeps a slice of the hi def pie.


What's arguably the best (to date) example of what blu ray can do? The Ten Commandments (how's that for a segue?)

 

[Johnny Angell]

Originally Posted by Mark-P



I suddenly feel incredibly old.

Ditto here. Could Alien be made today? Talk about a slow-paced (and I love it) beginning.

 

[Cinescott]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angell
Ditto here. Could Alien be made today? Talk about a slow-paced (and I love it) beginning.

I wonder about films like Alien (and the Ten Commandments for that matter) where slow pacing is almost a separate character. Ridley Scott uses Alien's slow start to put the audience "at ease" before all the terror and it works. DeMille let Moses' story unfold at its own pace, without much regard to running time and it works. The Red Sea parting doesn't happen until 3+ hours into the movie. Could that happen today? I don't know; probably not. I can't help but feel that something's been lost due to this reality.


I do wish there were more subtlety and nuance in film today, like in my all-time favorite, Lawrence of Arabia. In it, the pacing is almost synonymous with another non-human character, the desert itself. Slow to give or take, but with enormous beauty and "presence." It's been my favorite for 20 years and friends can't understand it. Boring, slow, dull, etc. How wrong they are.

Jackson Bentley: "Just what was it, Colonel Lawrence that first attracted you to the desert?"

Lawrence: "It's clean."

Jackson Bentley: "Now that's a very illuminating answer."

 

[Mark-P]

I've noticed that Amazon is no longer stocking the BD box. It was "item under review" for a while but now is only available through marketplace sellers. The only reason I want the box set instead of the cheaper 2-disc set is for the inclusion of the 1923 silent version. I was waiting for the price to drop to under $50, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen. I fear it will go out of print and I'll have to settle for the movie-only version!

 

[allanfisch]

Regarding the boxed laser and VHS set we did in 1991...I produced the set, supervised the film transfer, wrote the liner notes and created the chapter notations. I also supervised, with Joe's able assistance the creation of the stereo track at Chace Productions.Just want to set the record clear.

 

[allanfisch]

It is unfair to compare a twenty year old film transfer, from a film element( a lo-con print made for Discovision for their old release), the only one in the vault that was suitable for a letterboxed, properly framed release to a restoration from the VistaVision negative in 2K. I took a lot of politics to allow the studio and Pioneer to put up the money for a home video only release with a potential for only limited revenue. Don't forget, a good sales number for a catalog title on laserdisc was 10,000 units, i don't recall what the numbers were on this, but the entire project, mastering, sound work etc probably cost us about $60, 000. I can only gander at how much money was spent on this full digitial restoration project, but I'd be conservative in estimating that they probably spent 100 times as much as we had available at the time. MANY kudos to Ron for going the mile on this and all the titles that he's supervised over the past twenty years....He does it right.

Originally Posted by Rob_Ray

I would like to hear Joe Caps' opinion on the sound. Having produced the old laserdisc box set edition which, while containing rather dull colors, had a stunning never-surpassed soundtrack, Joe is a stickler when it comes to The Ten Commandments. I recall him once saying that a late fifties re-release had altered music cues during the Red Sea sequence and virtually all releases except his box set utilized these alterations. So if this BluRay has changes to the music during this sequence, this could be the reason. His box set had the original DeMille-approved music cues. Joe also had several other issues with music and reverb mixed too high or too low on earlier releases.


I have seen the new version projected digitally and the sound was phenomenal. For the first time since Joe's old laserdisc, the Entr'acte sounded like true stereo as opposed to reprocessed mono. This film was originally released with a mono track according to Paramount's restoration team, but I've heard rumors that DeMille did request a stereo mix for one or two prestige theatres. Nonetheless, those looking for lots of activity in the rear speakers should realize that most pre-Dolby-era films tended to spread the sound widely across the front and save the mono surround speaker for isolated instances to "wow" the audience.


I'd love to hear what Joe Caps has to say. Given all the issues he's had with earlier DVD releases, I wouldn't judge this restoration by them. If he's pleased, I wouldn't be concerned at all.

 

[marsnkc]

Originally Posted by Mark-P

I've noticed that Amazon is no longer stocking the BD box. It was "item under review" for a while but now is only available through marketplace sellers. The only reason I want the box set instead of the cheaper 2-disc set is for the inclusion of the 1923 silent version. I was waiting for the price to drop to under $50, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen. I fear it will go out of print and I'll have to settle for the movie-only version!

Walmart has it for $54.96. Shipping is free for store pickup, though (in my experience) they will also ship to your local UPS store - also free. As ever, tax will depend on whether it (more than likely) has a physical presence in your state. Online comments point to packaging problems (broken nubs etc) and consequent returns as being the reason for Amazon withdrawing. Limited editon or not, I can't see Paramount not attempting a reissue with sturdier packaging. I'm one of those anal types who (might also have) bought both the set ( a sucker for them!) and two-disc edition. Haven't opened the set (from Amazon) yet, but nothing's rattling, so fingers crossed.

(What is it about those 'nubs' - or whatever you call the things that hold a disc in place? There are almost as many forms - good, bad and indifferent - as there cases out there. Some wouldn't hold a piece of paper even if it was glued to it, while others do too good a job, resulting in the risk of breaking the disc in the effort to extract it!).

 

[Rick Thompson]

Originally Posted by marsnkc

(What is it about those 'nubs' - or whatever you call the things that hold a disc in place? There are almost as many forms - good, bad and indifferent - as there cases out there. Some wouldn't hold a piece of paper even if it was glued to it, while others do too good a job, resulting in the risk of breaking the disc in the effort to extract it!).

I don't know why home video ever got away from the hands-down best case/disc holder: the classic Amaray. It held the disc firmly and released it easily. It's never been improved upon. I bought them in bulk and transferred every DVD I have into them. Sadly, it's not being used in Blu-ray (the disc holder, not the black case itself) except in rare cases.

 

[marsnkc]

Originally Posted by Rick Thompson



I don't know why home video ever got away from the hands-down best case/disc holder: the classic Amaray. It held the disc firmly and released it easily. It's never been improved upon. I bought them in bulk and transferred every DVD I have into them. Sadly, it's not being used in Blu-ray (the disc holder, not the black case itself) except in rare cases.

I just googled Amaray. If you're referring to the 'pie-cut' hub then, yes, those are the best. I've never received a loose disc in one and the individual hub sections are easy to depress. I've no doubt that the 'brother in law' syndrome has a lot - or everything - to do with the sheer incompetence behind the myriad designs. I can imagine the empty knock-offs being given a cursory glance and passed without any testing done with those shiny, circular things they're meant to hold. Time is money, I guess!


I'm referring mostly to DVD cases. I've had a few blu disc dislodgements but at least the softer plastic helps to minimize scratching when these occur. The material used and design adopted for TTC appear to be departures from the reasonably homogenous blu standard. I'm afraid to look!