A Few Words About A few words about...™ The Sting -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Michel_Hafner]

Very interesting considering how he used to occasionally put people down for their strong views ( including me ) ...

or worse...

 

[Alan Tully]

Good question.
But we need to couple it with another. If we can do nothing (or nothing that works, at least), what do we do then?
Boycott? Give up on Blu-ray Disc? Buy them anyway, warts and all?
As you suggest, whatever response we choose, it'll doubtless be wrong in one way or another.
Steve W

I won't be boycotting them, for the most part I'm very happy, I do read all the reviews before buying, I don't take them as gospel, but I get an idea. The only purchase I've been really disappointed with is the colour on Cleopatra, but it looks like there's only five other people in the world that agree with me. Everything else I've bought I'm very happy with, even when they've overdone the DVNR. What else is there? On TV in the UK maybe half the 'scope films are zoomed to 16:9, & no one cares (I bet they're happy not to have the black bars). We're so fussy now, I can remember about 14 years ago being really chuffed when Fox finally released the VHS of Journey To The Centre Of The Earth, it was 4x3 & mono, but wow. I fell in love with The Egyptian watching on our tiny little b/w screen in the early 60's. It's the movies we love, & even when they don't get the BD quite right, it's usually still the best it's ever looked at home.

 

[Anthony Neilson]

I pointedly wasn't suggesting a boycott. That wouldn't do any good as far as I can see. But the fight against excessive DNR - and I stress excessive (I'm not an absolutist on this) - is nearly as important as the fight for OAR (in which Bill Hunt played a vital part). It's a matter of educating the public, albeit on a subtler point, as well as the studios and the media. It needs to be understood (as iterated by Gordon Willis in RAH's post) that grain structure is a creative choice, and that its removal is an act of vandalism. I believe it's a fight that could be won but it needs a holistic approach; and it needs some big-hitters to get it out there, in language everyone can understand.
We have all been conditioned to the idea of "upgrade". I can think of very few BDs that aren't an improvement on DVD and I'm content enough to buy on that basis. But I want to know that we're all on the same page as to what "upgrade" means. I'll re-buy MY FAIR LADY and CHINATOWN and PATTON and such, but not for trinkets. I want us to be moving towards recreating the original sources in all circumstances except the most onerous. This is about preservation, first and foremost.

 

[FoxyMulder]

Originally Posted by Anthony Neilson /t/320885/a-few-words-about-the-sting-in-blu-ray/60#post_3929687
I pointedly wasn't suggesting a boycott. That wouldn't do any good as far as I can see. But the fight against excessive DNR - and I stress excessive (I'm not an absolutist on this) - is nearly as important as the fight for OAR (in which Bill Hunt played a vital part). It's a matter of educating the public, albeit on a subtler point, as well as the studios and the media.

You also need to educate the average viewer about the need to calibrate their monitors, too many have their sharpness controls turned up resulting in film grain taking on a very nasty look and i suspect that's why some movies with film grain intact get bad reviews on sites like Amazon, i would also add excessive DNR and edge enhancement go hand in hand, both are bad, edge enhancement is required after the DNR takes away the detail and adds the blur effect to the image.

Boycotts won't work, people who frequent sites like this are a minority voice, i think it's a real shame that blu ray discs don't contain advice about the importance of calibration, calibrating the television or projector is half the work, proper calibration would make the film grain not standout to those complaining about it.

 

[Yorkshire]

But the fight against excessive DNR - and I stress excessive (I'm not an absolutist on this) - is nearly as important as the fight for OAR (in which Bill Hunt played a vital part).

Hi Anthony - respect for your point of view. My personal view is that every Blu-ray Disc should be as close to the OCN as possible (obviously minus scratches, and things on the OCN not intended to be seen, etc).
But my personal opinion is that this issue isn't even close to being as important as OAR.
If I had a choice between LoA or The Sting scrubbed cleaan in the OAR or perfect retention of grain stucture & cropped, I'd go for OAR every time without a moment's hesitation.
Steve W

 

[FoxyMulder]

Originally Posted by Yorkshire /t/320885/a-few-words-about-the-sting-in-blu-ray/60#post_3929835
But my personal opinion is that this issue isn't even close to being as important as OAR.
If I had a choice between LoA or The Sting scrubbed cleaan in the OAR or perfect retention of grain stucture & cropped, I'd go for OAR every time without a moment's hesitation.
Steve W

I don't think it's a situation where you have one or the other, both are very important, i couldn't bear anymore to watch a high resolution completely scrubbed clean image, it just looks wrong and takes me out of the movie, thats what happened when i watched Zulu, it just annoyed the hell outta me but the strange thing is that a lower resolution scrubbed clean film, as seen on SD satellite broadcasts is watchable to me, i think the lower resolution hides some issues but it's probably because i view SD broadcasts on a smaller television set, if i viewed on my projector at 104 inches then i'd throw up at the poor quality of SD broadcasts.

I wrote to the film companies here in the UK in the eighties asking for letterboxed films on VHS, i remember buying Apocalypse Now in its cropped 2.00:1 aspect ratio as inflicted on us by Storaro and i was not pleased even though it's better than foolscreen, i also remember how happy i was with the VHS edition of Born On The Fourth Of July and especially the Star Trek films, now i can't bear to buy most of those Trek films on blu ray ( Trek 2 is fine to me but i want the longer edition ) due to excessive overuse of digital tools.

I think we can have both retention of the grain structure and original aspect ratio, i'd also like an end to poor artwork on the case covers, bring back the original artwork, all these photoshopped cheaply looking case covers bother me, they have no style most of them, the original artwork worked, change for a new generation, it's just not needed.

 

[Yorkshire]

I don't think it's a situation where you have one or the other...

Well, clearly it was a hypothetical.
But if I had only £10 to spend, and there were two Blu-ray Discs in shop going for a tenner each, and I liked them equally well, and (for whatever bizarre reason you can imagine) I had to go home with a film that night...
In that instance I'd take the DNR'd one in OAR rather than the 'film-like' cropped one.
Steve W

 

[JParker]

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/308191/while-we-wait-for-a-few-words-about-lawrence-of-arabia-in-blu-ray/150 start at post 165.  He was a popular "insider" on another forum who implied he was associated Sony.  He was recently outed as not really being an insider by an actual Sony executive.

Thanks, Adam, and I can't believe so much time and space, both past and present, was wasted on him. Caveat emptor, on the Internet.
But the good news was that Mr. H. said he was involved with Lawrence, and no DNR, edge enhancement, etc. so that is promising:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/308191/while-we-wait-for-a-few-words-about-lawrence-of-arabia-in-blu-ray/630#post_3930475

 

[Charles Smith]

In that instance I'd take the DNR'd one in OAR rather than the 'film-like' cropped one.

My decision would be same, but it would be made "under protest".

 

[Yorkshire]

My decision would be same, but it would be made "under protest".

I'm not sure the spotty youth in my local HMV would listen.

Steve W

 

[zoetmb]

Robert -
I have a question for you. Is a home video release EVER really taken from the original negative? Before the advent of digital, negatives were cut into A and B rolls to hide splices and so the optical printers could process dissolves.
While the changes might be minor, if we go back to those A and B rolls and re-process the opticals digitally, aren't we, by definition, changing the film, because we're never going to get it exactly as it once was?
Isn't it more likely that the home video (even a "restored" home video) is taken from the interpositive?
P.S. Saw you standing in the door at Value Electronics last week. Sorry we didn't get a chance to talk. I wanted to thank you for all the great work you've done preserving our culture.

 

[Robert Harris]

While the changes might be minor, if we go back to those A and B rolls and re-process the opticals digitally, aren't we, by definition, changing the film, because we're never going to get it exactly as it once was?
Isn't it more likely that the home video (even a "restored" home video) is taken from the interpositive?
P.S. Saw you standing in the door at Value Electronics last week. Sorry we didn't get a chance to talk. I wanted to thank you for all the great work you've done preserving our culture.

I was trying to hide at VE, but you should have introduced yourself.

As to your question, there is no difference between going back to either A/B rolls, or to an original aut-select negative. When printer functions are encoded, they're seldom perfect, but one would never know, as you can't really see the first or last few frames of a fade or dissolve.

As to what element is being accessed, the answer is based upon both budget and intent.

Creating protection and archival files. You absolutely want your OCN.

Merely creating an HD master. The use of an IP, which holds virtually all of the color and density information, can save tens, or even a hundred thousand. You want to make certain that it's a proper IP, however.

Same situation for fine grain masters. If you're working with a fine grain, you want to know that it's derived from the OCN, and not a dupe of a dupe neg on fine grain stock.

RAH

 

[Dave H]

As always, I appreciate your feedback, Robert.
It's frustrating Universal still does not fully get it after eight years now in regards to their processing.
I hope Jaws and E.T. are under very strict Spielberg guidance through the entire Blu-ray encoding process until the final files are 100% completed. Unfortunately, it's self-evident this was not the case with Jurassic Park.

 

[JParker]

Sounds exactly like Out Of Africa.

It's on sale today, so I clicked the button -- top right of this page, either "see it" or "$11.99" will work.
I'll let you know. But realize I've no JVC projector so maybe the DNR won't be as bad as on a "state of the art" display.

 

[TonyD]

That has been the price of the "no frills" version for a while now. The digi book version is still hovering around $25.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Actually, Tony, when I pulled the trigger on it just two days ago, it was $13.96 on Amazon.

I'm thrilled that it's dropped another couple of bucks before release date.

 

[TonyD]

Ok, it must be bouncing a lot then I have seen it unde $12 a couple of weeks ago. I'm waiting for the book to come down more.

 

[Adam Gregorich]

It just dropped to $11.99 at Amazon

 

[MattAlbie60]

For anyone interested, my Best Buy put this out early. Not the book version, the regular one. It rings up at $14.99, but I got them to price match their own website to $11.99, even though it doesn't come out for two more days.
If you can't wait, it's worth a shot.
For some reason, whenever something is put out early it always rings up at the sticker price and not the sale price. When my local Best Buy put out the ALIEN ANTHOLOGY set two weeks early, I had to pay $110 and wait for it to come out to get them to price match it down to $90 or whatever it was. I didn't want to do it at the checkout, as I didn't want to take the chance of them taking it away from me

 

[JoeDoakes]

I hate to sound like Penton, but this is something that I'm best not to discuss at the moment.
RAH

Mr. Harris, this post of yours has been in my head for the last 10 days. It's a very strange response to the question of whether this release should be boycotted. You could have said:
1. yes, boycott
2. boycotts do no good, send them a letter or email
3. get the HDDVD and an HDDVD player for Universal's screwed up blus (as you have said elsewhere)
4, given that I am part of the film industry and not your typical consumer, I am not the best person to call for a boycott. Make your own decision.
Instead, you said that it's best that your don't discuss it right now. Just a wild thought, but could it be that Universal has discussed getting you to consult with them about their blu ray releases? Universal's recent problems do not seem to be a question of money; they just do not seem to have a clear idea of what they are doing. If not yourself, they need to find someone.