A Few Words About A few words about...™ The Lord of the Rings Trilogy - Extended Edition -- in Blu-ray

Discussion in 'Blu-ray and UHD' started by Robert Harris, Jun 14, 2011.

  1. Mark-P

    Mark-P Producer

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2005
    Messages:
    3,074
    Likes Received:
    937
    Location:
    Camas, WA
    Real Name:
    Mark Probst
    Why is that so important? The extended editions all run well over 3 hours each and the last film is over 4 hours. To avoid compression issues they are thankfully split over 2 platters and one quick bathroom break won't kill you. :)
     
    Stephen_J_H likes this.
  2. Vincent_P

    Vincent_P Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2003
    Messages:
    1,871
    Likes Received:
    205
    The LORD OF THE RINGS film can actually never exist in "true" Ultra HD since they were all post-produced at 2K resolution. And "Ultra HD" releases would be upconverts. I'm pretty sure THE HOBBIT films are also being finished at 2K, as well.

    Vincent
     
  3. JoshZ

    JoshZ Second Unit

    Joined:
    May 26, 2012
    Messages:
    439
    Likes Received:
    104
    Location:
    Boston
    Real Name:
    Joshua Zyber
    IIRC, talk at the time of the first Hobbit movie was that it was shot at 5k, then post-produced at 4k, but that the HFR edition could only accommodate 2k distribution. I'm not sure about the new one.
     
  4. Jay G.

    Jay G. Agent

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    One: No Blu-ray will ever be in UHD. UHD will require some new video format for delivery (like REDRay, which isn't a disc format).Two: The Extended Edition Blu-rays maximize the quality of the Blu-ray format, with lossless audio and a relatively high video bitrate. They could've squeezed it all onto one disc, but they would've had to have at least halved the video bitrate and/or lost the lossless audio. The video quality would've been better than say an "HD" iTunes download, but not on par with other Blu-rays.http://www.avsforum.com/t/1342504/the-lord-of-the-rings-motion-picture-trilogy-extended-edition-blu-ray-reviewhttp://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110717151301AAEoUkZhttp://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=173381Keep in mind that even the best Blu-ray is still heavily compressed; you're only ever seeing a fraction of the data of the original; it's just usually compressed well enough that you don't notice.
    The indication is that the first Hobbit was mastered at 2K for VFX reasons:http://www.reduser.net/forum/printthread.php?t=90770&pp=40&page=4The system they used was capable of outputting 4K or even 5K masters:http://www.tvtechnology.com/prntarticle.aspx?articleid=220928A lot more info on the post production system they used:http://www.tvbeurope.com/theworkflownews-content/full/big-data-in-middle-earthhttp://www.tvbeurope.com/main-content/full/posting-the-hobbit-hfrhttp://www.sgo.es/2013/01/sgo-mistikas-unique-workflow-helps-to-produce-world-first-major-48fps-3d-feature-film-the-hobbit-an-unexpected-journey/
     
  5. FoxyMulder

    FoxyMulder 映画ファン

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,236
    Likes Received:
    1,614
    Location:
    Scotland
    Real Name:
    Malcolm
    They will be using the H.265 codec and 100GB discs, i believe the intent is to make this work with new blu ray players and thus backwards compatible with existing technology, of course you need to invest in a new blu ray player but you needed to do that with 3D too, i prefer to call it 4K and not UHD.
     
  6. Jay G.

    Jay G. Agent

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    The rumor of UHD Blu-ray discs apparently started in Sept because of this German press release:
    http://www.singulus.de/de/press-news/press-releases/press-release/article/singulus-technologies-presents-production-technology-for-100-gb-blu-ray-disc/7.html

    Of course, the press release doesn't say that the 100GB discs will be used for 4K content, just that they could be used. No mention of any codecs was mentioned in the press release, that was added by news sites generating the rumors:
    http://www.digital-digest.com/news-63752-New-100GB-Blu-ray-Disc-may-be-used-for-4K-Movies.html

    As that link shows, 100GB discs aren't actually new, and are part of a standard called BDXL, which was defined by the BDA back in 2010. These higher capacity discs are not compatible with existing Blu-ray players:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#BDXL

    If the BDA creates a disc that is higher capacity, uses a new codec, and displays a higher resolution, that's a new standard, on par with the DVD Forum creating the HD DVD standard. Completely new players will be needed to play the discs, and the discs won't be playable at all on standard Blu-ray players. The difference between that and Blu-ray 3D is that the 3D was considered an extension to the existing standards since while you needed a newer Blu-ray 3D compatible player to play those discs in 3D, older Blu-ray players could still play those discs in 2D.


    Finally, doesn't 100GB for UHD seem kinda small? I mean, existing Blu-rays are 50GB, while UHD is 4x the resolution. When we switched from Standard Def DVD to 1080p Blu-ray, the jump in capacity was 5x, from 8.5GB to 50GB, over a 5x increase, while going to 100GB is just double.
     
  7. FoxyMulder

    FoxyMulder 映画ファン

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,236
    Likes Received:
    1,614
    Location:
    Scotland
    Real Name:
    Malcolm
    I believe they are considering this an extension to the current blu ray standard too and i think the way it will work is they will sell a 1080p edition with the 4K version, if they don't do that i think it won't take off.

    100GB is enough, the H.265 codec is supposed to get you near 2x times efficiency over the current H.264 codec they use, so 2x times capacity and 2 times codec efficiency covers the 4x times increase in resolution, also take into account most great looking films use around 30GB to 35GB, some use less, some use more, and i think it would work, hopefully they will give an announcement in the new year.

    The big increase in size could come from using 10 or 12 bit colour, that requires more capacity, if they only increase resolution then i personally think it a waste, i want something better than the current 8 bit colour they use, resolution alone doesn't interest me.
     
  8. Chuck Anstey

    Chuck Anstey Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 1998
    Messages:
    1,624
    Likes Received:
    102
    Real Name:
    Chuck Anstey
    Don't forget that the 50GB size came from Sony's original plan to use MPEG-2, a much less efficient codec that needed more size and greater bandwidth than VC-1 or H.264. So in a sense, 50GB blu-ray is already oversized for the original intended purpose of a 2.5 hour movie given the actual codecs used.
     
  9. Jari K

    Jari K Producer

    Joined:
    May 16, 2007
    Messages:
    3,292
    Likes Received:
    250
    Oversized? With movie, HD audio, dubs, subs, extras, PiP tracks, 3D versions... Less is not more. More is more.
     
  10. Jay G.

    Jay G. Agent

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's like calling Blu-ray an extension of DVD, since many Blu-rays include a DVD version of the movie as well. On a technical level, they won't be the same format, regardless of branding.
    H.264 is claimed to be "at least twice as efficient as MPEG-2", so the change from DVD to Blu-ray saw a 6x increase in resolution, but a more than 5x increase in capacity, along with at least 2x the codec efficiency. And that's still not enough to fit LOTR EE on one disc, or really eliminate all the compression artifacts and the like.http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/technology/technology.pdfAnd as you point out, if they increase the color depth, that's even more data and space they'll need. They could fit UHD onto 100GB discs, but much like early Blu-rays that "fit" onto 25GB discs with MPEG2 compression, the space likely isn't enough for a quality presentation.
     
  11. FoxyMulder

    FoxyMulder 映画ファン

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,236
    Likes Received:
    1,614
    Location:
    Scotland
    Real Name:
    Malcolm
    Everything i have read suggests they are calling it an extension to the blu ray format, by that i mean they are still going to be marketed as blu ray discs, long films have been a problem on every disc format, i know the technology is available to use much more capacity than 100GB, they have the tech now to reduce the pit size and the track pitch and increase disc capacity, they could get close to a terabyte by doing this but that would be a brand new format and they wish to make this an extension of blu ray.

    DVD used a red laser, that's why blu ray cannot be called an extension of DVD, the 4K format will use the same blue ( violet ) laser and the exact same 405 nm laser diode and that's why it can be called an extension of that format.

    It should also be noted that audio has greater potential with 4K content, the HDMI 2.0 spec allows far more audio channels, maybe Dolby Atmos for the home could become a possibility with this future tech, of course that means more disc space being used too.
     
  12. Jay G.

    Jay G. Agent

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    Could you please provide links to what you've read, because I can't find anything but rumors from September based on a misreading of a German press release for 100GB Blu-ray XL dics.To my mind, once a format is completely unreadable on a current player, it is no longer an extension of an existing format, but a new format entirely. The 100GB discs are in and of themselves not backwards compatible, and the H265 codec would be as well. This is in contrast to previous Blu-ray extensions like Profiles 2.0, 3.0, and 5.0 (aka 3D), where at least something was playable, typically the main feature, in previous players, if not with all possible extras or enhancements.Now, it's possible that the new format will continue the Blu-ray branding, calling itself something like Blu-ray UHD", akin to the "HD DVD" brand containing the term DVD in it. But it will still be a new format for all intents and purposes.
     
  13. FoxyMulder

    FoxyMulder 映画ファン

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,236
    Likes Received:
    1,614
    Location:
    Scotland
    Real Name:
    Malcolm
    That was not a misreading, they said they were ready with their production line for 4K with three layer blu ray using 100GB discs, i doubt Singulus would announce this unless the next generation blu ray extension was almost ready.

    Just Google 4K and blu ray extension and the info is out there, new players will be backwards compatible with existing blu ray discs, is it rumour or is it true, well lets wait until the end of January 2014 and i'm sure we will find out, my gut tells me it's true.

    Let's wait a month and then continue this conversation. ;)
     
  14. Jay G.

    Jay G. Agent

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    No. Reading the original press release, Singulus says that the 100GB discs are "ideal for," "suitable" for, and "in time for" 4K content, but not that the discs are part of any 4K standard. Their press release even states that the BDA has not yet established a new standard.As stated before, 100GB discs are already part of the Blu-ray XL standard, announced in 2010. That's all Singulus has done: made replication of these discs possible. They added the term 4K to jazz up their press release, and everyone took it and ran with it into rampant speculation.
    I've already googled for info, and the info I find is not what you've found, at least in terms of verifiable info. In fact, searching explicitly those terms you provided together gives nothing but a vague statement back in April by the BDA that they were stadying "a range of possible format extensions." Nothing more recent was found.http://www.cnet.com.au/blu-ray-set-to-make-4k-decision-later-this-year-339344088.htm
    This pretty much goes without saying. I mean, existing Blu-ray players are backwards compatible with DVD and CD. It would be foolish for anyone to release a new optical player for a new format that was not also backwards compatible with existing formats.Also, whether or not a new format is being planned is one thing. Whether it will contain the Blu-ray branding in some way is another. And whether it's considered a new format or an extension of an existing format is a matter of opinion. In my opinion, once a disc requires a completely new player to play at all, it's a new format, regardless of branding.Finally, in regards to my original response that sparked this tangent, I was responding to Brian Dobbs on the assumption that he was speaking about currently available technology, i.e. getting a disc now that would work on his current players that could store UHD on one disc. That's not going to happen. UHD on disc will require a new standard with more storage than Blu-ray, likely a different codec than Blu-ray, and support for higher resolutions than Blu-ray. Whether or not this new standard includes the word "Blu-ray" in it, it will be nearly as different from existing Blu-rays as HD DVD was from DVDs, excepting the color of the laser.
     
  15. FoxyMulder

    FoxyMulder 映画ファン

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,236
    Likes Received:
    1,614
    Location:
    Scotland
    Real Name:
    Malcolm
    They didn't have a replication line for commercial blu ray reproduction, now they do, read into that what you may, call it a rumour, i'd say it's an educated guess that 4K will use 100GB discs, as i already said why don't we just wait and see what happens instead of going back and forth, i'm willing to do a little side bet with you that when it comes they will call it an extension of the blu ray format and it will use H.265 codec and it will come on 3 layer 100GB discs.

    I wouldn't call it a brand new format, not while it uses the same pitch as blu ray and exact same laser, it's an extension to what we already have, indeed if it used the H.264 codec then it's very likely some blu ray players could play the discs with a firmware update, the only thing stopping that is the use of the H.265 codec, hardly a major new format as far as i am concerned.

    Your opinion is it's a brand new format, my opinion is it's just an extension of current blu ray standards, lets agree to disagree and wait for new announcements from the BDA in January, i think that's when they intend to tell us more.
     
  16. Jay G.

    Jay G. Agent

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0

Share This Page