A Few Words About A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD (1 Viewer)

[Robert Crawford]

Have you seen the US Blu-ray and if so how much detail you think you have lost? Anyhow, compromises have to be made in either case, but it's not worth twice the money to me in order to buy into the UK choice.

 

[PaulDA]

IF the Patton BD is no worse with respect to DNR than the US version of Pan's Labyrinth (I saw it as an HD DVD rental a few weeks back), then I think that I, personally, could live with the Patton BD. I agree that everyone has his own threshold for processing of PQ (I am far more "nitpicky" about audio than about video, but I know there are others who are the reverse--and those who are equally nitpicky...well, I suggest therapy j/k) but mine, with my current gear, is comfortable with the way Pan's looked in its US release in HD. That it could be better, I have no doubt (same goes for just about every title in my collection, if we want to be technical about it) and I would very much like to see releases be as good as they can be (within reasonable limits) but, at the risk of a few brickbats, I'm prepared to live with "significantly better" than SD DVD, even if there are times when it's not "as good as it can be".

As for the movie, I really liked Pan's a lot. The point about the original fairy tales made above is quite correct--they were not meant to be Disney puff pieces. I have a collection of English fairy tales (the originals, as far back as the written versions can be traced) and they are not "puff pieces". The original Three Bears, for example, doesn't have Goldilocks, but rather a nasty old woman who dies from a fall out the second story window. The Three Pigs trap the wolf in the cooking pot in the brick house's fireplace, boil him alive and eat him for dinner. Etc. Pan's, IMO, was a brave recounting of a fairy tale in the manner in which they were originally conceived--as a life lesson for adults. This will definitely be added to my collection (likely in Blu as I'd like to take advantage of the newer audio codec that my A2 does not allow for with the HD DVD--though the core audio was impressive in its own right).

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Sounds like a good way to go.

How did that saying go? You live to fight another day? At 1/2 the price, you pick your poison and save the rest for another day.

Personally, I too did not find the DNR (and EE) applied here to be too objectionable. Yeah, I can see the diff in the screen caps (and did so *before* I bought in), but I didn't find it that obvious in practice w/ the images in motion and w/out a side-by-side comparison to go w/ that either.

For myself, I actually find artifacts like 3:2 pulldown judder to be a fair bit more noticeable and distracting than the amount of DNR+EE applied in this case. Of course, 3:2 pulldown judder is only noticeable to me in a very few shots here and there in various films (outside of rolling credits).

OTOH, maybe the likely harder/edgier look (due to EE) will be more apparent on a fixed pixel display, particularly a direct-view one. I'm still using a 1080i CRT RPTV right now...

_Man_

 

[Robert Harris]

The Patton Blu and Pan Blu cannot be adequately compared.

They are two totally different beasts.

The loss of high frequency detail on Patton is probably equivalent to 50% of that of Pan, which would make Pan unviewable.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

I own the US BD, and while on its own it looks "good", it definitely lacks some of the texture from the 35mm theatrical projection that I saw (twice). Also, at AVS some folks did some 1080p screen-grabs from the US BD and the UK version without any processing... and it was pretty obvious just how much detail is being lost in the US version especially in textures of clothing and skin. The faces on the US version looked a little "smoothed over" in comparison.

I don't think that the DNR on Pan is as destructive as what we see on Patton (juding by the screen caps), but since Pan is one of my favorite all-time films, I'd like to have a full-res 1080p copy in my library (even if it costs more to import).

 

[PaulDA]

Forgive the perhaps silly question, but I presume this is the case owing to the difference between 65mm and 35mm film sizes?

In any event, even if my understanding of the technical reasons is not correct, I appreciate your response. Essentially, the proportionate "degradation" (for lack of a better term) is higher on Patton than on Pan's, if I understand correctly. Thus the greater outcry over the Patton BD.

 

[Robert Harris]

Pan appears to have been de-grained with a light hand and a bit of elegance, and without removing all of the high frequency.

Patton was grain-raped, and the high frequency lopped off.

But it is now prettier, and almost as good a film as it was previously.

 

[Paul Arnette]

Yes, there is that trade-off. Myself, I'd rather see a few more scan lines than the director intended, but see the remainder of them as intended rather than seeing only the ones intended as they weren't intended to be seen.

Edited to add:

Oh, the other trade-off is in terms of sound as the Optimum Home Entertainment release only as a lossy DD 5.1 track. So, I definitely understand why some are content to stay with the domestic release.

 

[Paul_Scott]

I can understand, and even applaud that sentiment. I like this movie a lot, but will make do with the domestic version for the time being. In this case, fans like you are fortunate that an alternative exists.

 

[Cassy_w]

With all due respect to Mr. Harris, I have the UK release and compared it to the U.S. release on a 73 inch monitor. The differences are striking and shocking. The U.S. release is pure trash, with massive amounts of detail removed. It's especially jarring with faces. Skin looks like it's been air brushed in the same way women are air brushed in Playboy.

The 1.78:1 image has a tad bit more picture information at the top and bottom. No cropping.

There are links out there with comparisons that will shick you, but I cannot find them right now.

 

[Paul Arnette]

Yes, let's keep 'DNR' where it belongs!

 

[Michael Reuben]

For those who want to see the difference between the U.K. and U.S. releases, here's the set of comparison stills that, to my eye, shows the most obvious difference. You have to let both stills load; mousing over the image swaps between them:

Pan's Labyrinth U.K. vs. U.S.

This and other links can be found in an extensive thread, replete with the usual extreme positions ( ), at AVS:

Blu-ray, HD-DVD & HD Broadcasts(H.264 & MPEG-2) Screenshots*BIG FILES* - Page 45 - AVS Forum

M.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

It figures! They just can't give me my perfect Pan's Labyrinth no matter what, can they?!? :frowning:

 

[Cassy_w]

The audio on the disc is just fine. Frankly, we could not tell the difference.

But I'll take better picture over slightly better sound any day of the week.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Mr. Harris hasn't seen the UK release. I am the one that stated I won't be buying the UK disc.

 

[Cassy_w]

I think you read what I wrote all wrong. I didn't say Harris saw the UK release. What i was talking about was Harris saying the U.S. release looks good when it doesn't. It looks like a video game, completely raped of detail by DVNR and the UK release is the proof in the pudding.

 

[Robert Crawford]

I won't speak for RAH, but to my eyes, it does look good so we have a basic disagreement here.

 

[Robert Harris]

I must admit to being confused.

I've revisited Pan's, and have come away with precisely the same opinion.

The BD disc is slightly grain reduced (there is still a bit of grain evident), and not only am I not seeing waxy faces, I'm seeing a reasonable amount of detail.

If anyone is comparing this to Patton, please keep in mind that the difference in the amount of real estate available for an image is HUGE!

While the image for Pan was captured on an area approximately .825 x .446, Patton was exposed to a virtual estate of 1.912 x .870, meaning that Patton should have (at a minimum) four times the resolution.

Pan's Labyrinth has not been "grain raped."

May I suggest a check of player or monitor settings?

RAH

 

[Jari K]

I have the US BD-release, but haven´t watch it yet. Based on the links/screencaps provided by Michael, US-release looks slightly different for sure..

 

[Michael Reuben]

I don't want to mislead. There are other comparisons provided by the same source where, for the life of me, I can't see a meaningful difference. For example:

Instant Waggle Image

M.