A Few Words About A few words about...™ It's a Wonderful Life -- in Blu-ray (2 Viewers)

[Mike Frezon]

Originally Posted by Michael Reuben /forum/thread/294790/a-few-words-about-it-s-a-wonderful-life-in-blu-ray/90#post_3627721
Get a new friend. /img/vbsmilies/htf/smiley_wink.gif">

He's lucky to have any!

 

[Steve Christou]

/img/vbsmilies/htf/biggrin.gif I don't think he looks at blu-ray reviews before he buys, and he would probably think It's a Wonderful Life looks 'stunning' too. /img/vbsmilies/htf/smiley_wink.gif
The Godfather trilogy is on my to buy list. I only bought the remastered dvd a year ago.

 

[Cees Alons]

Michael is so right. /img/vbsmilies/htf/smile.gif
The Godfather Trilogy (which also happened to be the films I wanted on Hi-Def most of all) was what made me place Paramount at the top of my list.
Now you have a BD-player, go get it Steve!
(Of course I was "tricked" into buying the Steelbook DVD, sold by Amazon/UK, as well. If the temptation is that close to home... Never doubted it would happen to you too. The BD is based on the same restoration by Robert Harris, and looks even better, of course. Just buy it already. /img/vbsmilies/htf/smile.gif )
Cees

 

Originally Posted by Steve Christou /forum/thread/294790/a-few-words-about-it-s-a-wonderful-life-in-blu-ray/90#post_3627716
Michael, as you know I just got into blu-ray recently and I asked a friend to recommend some blu-ray films, Patton was one of them, "you won't believe how clear it looks" he told me. He also recommended The Longest Day and Zulu.
Mike, Cees has a bigger tv he'll notice more flaws. /img/vbsmilies/htf/smiley_wink.gif

I bought Zulu and The Longest Day based on several positive reviews, then only once I had them, did I discover the one or two negative reviews, which then explained why the discs were playing so odd. Zulu I think the DNR is mainly visible in the movement, which judders badly, and in blocks of colour, like the red jackets, which are waxed homogenous. However, its nowhere near as bad as The Longest Day, which is, as has been said countless times before, a wax museum. From the caps and others descriptions here, IWAL sounds like its in that ballpark too.
Anyway, both discs are in my pile to sell.

 

[Steve Christou]

That's a crying shame because Patton, Longest Day and Zulu are huge favourites of mine.

I will buy Godfather Cees, whoever did the remastering did a pretty good job I must say. [wink] I still haven't bought North by Northwest, it's out next week in the UK. I really want that to be 'stunning'. No digibook here though.

 

[Brandon Conway]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris /forum/thread/294790/a-few-words-about-it-s-a-wonderful-life-in-blu-ray/90#post_3627706

And there is no difference between water leaks in a home, failed brakes, or an amateurishly produced Blu-ray disc coming from an entity that most would presume to still be one of the great studios.

Come on now.... really? Really? No difference?

Failed breaks can potentially KILL ME. Some faults on a Blu-ray disc may.... potentially disappoint my 2-hour entertainment.

Yeah, they're exactly the same.

The hyperbole on this forum astounds me sometimes.

While we should always look for and demand the highest quality for all products, some products working right are on a higher scale of importance and necessity. A Blu-ray disc with some bad digital manipulation is unfortunate and should not be occurring, but it's in no way as disconcerting as something potentially lethal and literally life altering (or ending).

 

[Michael Reuben]

Originally Posted by Brandon Conway /forum/thread/294790/a-few-words-about-it-s-a-wonderful-life-in-blu-ray/90#post_3627743
Come on now.... really? Really?
Failed breaks can potentially KILL ME. Some faults on a Blu-ray disc may.... potentially disappoint my 2-hour entertainment.
Yeah, they're exactly the same.
The hyperbole on this forum astounds me sometimes.

It's only "hyperbole" if one fails to adjust both sides of the equation.
Yes, absolutely, the consequences of shoddy work in homes and cars will be more serious than those of shoddy work on a Blu-ray. That's because homes and cars provide more fundamental and potentially more dangerous functions than Blu-rays. But when you weigh the impact of shoddy work against the intended function, the analogy is legitimate.
I grow weary of people responding to technical critiques with arguments like "it's just entertainment", "it's only a movie", etc. These are truisms that, in the larger philosophical sense, can't be disputed. They're like the line attributed to Keynes that, "in the long run, we're all dead". Anyone with any perspective on life knows that entertainment isn't the be-all and end-all. Still, anyone who's made the decision to participate in something called Home Theater Forum has thereby implicitly conceded that entertainment is a subject worth taking seriously.

 

[Brandon Conway]

Seriously, yes. Bordering on hysterical reaction, no.

There's a reason that the studios are treating the forum communities more and more like a nagging, spoiled child.

I have no problem with calling a spade a spade, but the angst, and the hand wringing, and the pitchforks raised..... it's awfully tiresome to read day-in and day-out.

This is not to say the studios shouldn't do better - they should always seek to do better, and root out the causes of imperfect product. But I have my suspicions that a private report from Mr. Harris to Paramount will go a longer way to solving this problem than any of the messages on this forum. This thread is merely for the consumer to be aware of this imperfection, and no amount of shouting herein will make a lick of difference (outside of individual purchasing decisions). So pardon me for wanting the conversation to stay within the realm of measured, and realistic, conversation and analogies.

In that spirit, I would gladly agree with the leaky roof comparison. Perhaps broken automatic windows would be a better vehicular one?

 

[Cees Alons]

A hysterical reaction, or anything bordering thereon, is nowhere to be seen, IMO.
But are you seriously arguing that errors on a BD are less so because the results of those errors are nothing life-threatening or even dangerous?
In fact, I know you don't: because you love Blu-ray so much. /img/vbsmilies/htf/smile.gif
Cees

 

[Robert Harris]

I want to be very clear about this. The new Blu-ray of It's a Wonderful Life has nowhere near the problems of either The Longest Day or Patton, both of which were created by a firm that believed to their soul that grain was bad and had to be eliminated. Unfortunately, they also had a poor strategy for elimination. That was also eighteen months ago -- a huge period of time in the life of Blu-ray. Fox has new people in place, who are doing superb work.
It's a Wonderful Life is an unfortunate case of allowing a vendor to do work on an important film -- and releasing it well after we should have been past both the learning curve as well as any technological growing pains.
Those reviewers who have commented on the new IaWL Blu-ray, and have found it pleasing are generally not incorrect in their comments. The new release is sharp, has nice and pleasantly graded gray scale and both good blacks and white. Its problems lie beneath the surface, but are extremely obvious to anyone with a knowledge of film and the look of film.
Once again, the problem is not that IaWL is not a pretty disc. The problem is that it is fully digital and wrong.
RAH

Originally Posted by Ben Cheshire /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I bought Zulu and The Longest Day based on several positive reviews, then only once I had them, did I discover the one or two negative reviews, which then explained why the discs were playing so odd. Zulu I think the DNR is mainly visible in the movement, which judders badly, and in blocks of colour, like the red jackets, which are waxed homogenous. However, its nowhere near as bad as The Longest Day, which is, as has been said countless times before, a wax museum. From the caps and others descriptions here, IWAL sounds like its in that ballpark too.
Anyway, both discs are in my pile to sell.

 

[Michael Reuben]

Originally Posted by Brandon Conway /forum/thread/294790/a-few-words-about-it-s-a-wonderful-life-in-blu-ray/90#post_3627748
There's a reason that the studios are treating the forum communities more and more like a nagging, spoiled child.

I've been hearing that for years. It is and always has been crap. The studios' treatment of the forum communities is driven by how useful they do or don't find them, at any given time, in developing a particular market. But I digress.

/forum/thread/294790/a-few-words-about-it-s-a-wonderful-life-in-blu-ray/90#post_3627748
So pardon me for wanting the conversation to stay within the realm of measured, and realistic, conversation and analogies.

I look forward to your future contributions on that score.

 

[Robert Harris]

Paramount has no one in place of whom I'm aware that would be in the least interested. If such a person is in place, they might make their existence and interest known. My perception is that even with some quality technical people in place, they are probably facing an uphill battle to be enabled to create quality product.

Originally Posted by Brandon Conway /img/forum/go_quote.gif
This is not to say the studios shouldn't do better - they should always seek to do better, and root out the causes of imperfect product. But I have my suspicions that a private report from Mr. Harris to Paramount will go a longer way to solving this problem than any of the messages on this forum. This thread is merely for the consumer to be aware of this imperfection, and no amount of shouting herein will make a lick of difference (outside of individual purchasing decisions). So pardon me for wanting the conversation to stay within the realm of measured, and realistic, conversation and analogies.

 

[Brandon Conway]

Originally Posted by Cees Alons
But are you seriously arguing that errors on a BD are less so because the results of those errors are nothing life-threatening or even dangerous?
In fact, I know you don't: because you love Blu-ray so much. /img/vbsmilies/htf/smile.gif

Ultimately, taking in the whole spectrum of life, yes. How could they not be? I may love Blu-ray (and more so the movies they provide in such generally high quality), but at the end of the day I could part with all of them if needed to. Luxuries and conveniences are ultimately exactly that.

Originally Posted by Michael Reuben /forum/thread/294790/a-few-words-about-it-s-a-wonderful-life-in-blu-ray/90#post_3627754
Are you assuming there hasn't been one? I wouldn't.

On the contrary - I assume Mr. Harris did so before he even made this thread. He has the ears of many in the industry, and I'm glad he speaks into them.
EDIT: On the other hand, it seems as though Mr. Harris would love to, but that avenue is yet undiscovered. Very discouraging to read that. And if Paramount doesn't even have someone in place to listen to the Robert Harris's of the world - man oh man....

Originally Posted by Robert Harris /forum/thread/294790/a-few-words-about-it-s-a-wonderful-life-in-blu-ray/90#post_3627754
Paramount has no one in place of whom I'm aware that would be in the least interested. If such a person is in place, they might make their existence and interest known. My perception is that even with some quality technical people in place, they are probably facing an uphill battle to be enabled to create quality product.

 

[Cees Alons]

Brandon,

Originally Posted by Brandon Conway /forum/thread/294790/a-few-words-about-it-s-a-wonderful-life-in-blu-ray/90#post_3627763
Ultimately, taking in the whole spectrum of life, yes. How could they not be? I may love Blu-ray (and more so the movies they provide in such generally high quality), but at the end of the day I could part with all of them if needed to. Luxuries and conveniences are ultimately exactly that.

Oh, basically I agree. To take it one step further: there will be a day at the end of which nothing in this life will bear any emotional importance to me.
But, on the other hand, as long as I live, I'm allowed to worry about the little things I work and pay for.
Yes, that includes striving for perfection. And if people have chosen as their job a work that perhaps doesn't make a difference between life and death for many people in a direct way (and many of us happen to have work that doesn't), it's not unreasonable to demand some perfection (or at least great quality) from them nevertheless.
We all work to get payed. As long as you don't pay with counterfeit money, the product you get in return shouldn't be any counterfeit either, IMO. Preferably not in any way.
Which has nothing to do, whatsoever, with the relative importance, or, in an absolute sense, life-threatening properties, of different products or situations (which in itself cannot be denied).
Cees

 

[Michael Reuben]

Originally Posted by Brandon Conway /forum/thread/294790/a-few-words-about-it-s-a-wonderful-life-in-blu-ray/90#post_3627763
EDIT: On the other hand, it seems as though Mr. Harris would love to, but that avenue is yet undiscovered. Very discouraging to read that. /img/vbsmilies/htf/frown.gif And if Paramount doesn't even have someone in place to listen to the Robert Harris's of the world - man oh man....

Certainly casts a different light on the situation, don't you think?

 

[Brandon Conway]

Originally Posted by Michael Reuben /forum/thread/294790/a-few-words-about-it-s-a-wonderful-life-in-blu-ray/90#post_3627777
Certainly casts a different light on the situation, don't you think?

More like the light was turned off. If they don't have anyone to listen to him directly, I doubt a forum can shame them into making the needed adjustments. I hope they prove me wrong.

 

[Brian Husar]

People like Ned Price and Crisp (I think thats his name) at Columbia listen to Harris, and you could see the quality they have been putting out

 

[Robert Harris]

Ned Price and Grover Crisp have been in place for long enough that they know very well what they're doing on their own.
Although information and suggestions are occasionally offered back and forth -- going in both directions -- they, along with Fox's Schawn Belston, Universal's Bob O'Neil and Disney's Theo Gluck serve as an industry core of asset protection professionals with many decades of experience. Mr. Crisp and Mr. Belston follow through from asset protection to final transfers, which is a superb way of handling the matter, and their efforts may be seen in current Blu-ray releases. Paramount is not set up this way.
I'll be commenting on Mr. Belston's latest very soon.
RAH

Originally Posted by Brian Husar /img/forum/go_quote.gif
People like Ned Price and Crisp (I think thats his name) at Columbia listen to Harris, and you could see the quality they have been putting out

 

[Edwin-S]

Originally Posted by Brandon Conway /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There's a reason that the studios are treating the forum communities more and more like a nagging, spoiled child.

If studios didn't turn crap out and try to charge premium prices for it then they wouldn't have people complaining on forums like this one. If they want to charge me 30 dollars for a single movie then the video and audio quality had better be the very best it can be for the given technology. The studios have only themselves to blame if they think forum communities are nagging, spoiled children. People who frequent specialty forums like this one take their hobby seriously and they are going to let studios know their displeasure when they try to sell trash at a premium price.
People don't have to agree but if an expert, who knows what the film is supposed to look like, says that it doesn't then for all intents and purposes I consider the release to be trash, especially when the releaser feels a higher price for itis warranted. For me, a higher price automatically means that a higher level of value and quality is expected. In this hobby that means transfers that recreate the look of the film and lossless audio for both remixed and original soundtracks, including monaural ones. Those are the bare minimum standards that should be expected from any Blu-ray release.
When a studio doesn't deliver then they should be prepared for the chorus of complaints that will follow. If they want the "nagging" and "whining" to stop then start doing the job right the first time. Stop applying DNR when it is not needed and stop needlessly dropping or changing bits of dialogue or scenes in films that have been established classics for decades. I'm not as sensitive to dialogue and scene changes as a lot of people here are, but I have noticed that those types of changes also generate any number of complaints about studio manipulations.

 

[DavidS]

Not for nothing, but is there any way of finding out which vendors are creating which discs for the studios? I have a feeling that if we had this info, we could see who's authoring quality discs (Forrest Gump, Braveheart) as opposed to Paramount's less stellar output (The Truman Show, Gladiator, It's a Wonderful Life)...