A Few Words About A few words about...™ Howards End -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[marsnkc]

Addition:


This from DVDTown on the announced BD for the Ralph Fiennes 'Cemetery':


'Exclusively available on the Blu-ray edition is the BD-Live enabled movieIQ, which lets viewers access live trivia information about the cast, crew, music and production - ALL WHILE WATCHING THE MOVIE [my caps]'.


This 'enhancement' is in addition to another unwanted DVD 'included' in the package. The mind boggles!

 

[24fpssean]

All if it caters to the ADD set, thus enabling them to continue a healthy life of ADD. I want, I want, I want, I want, rather than sit your ass down, shut up and watch the movie.

 

[TonyD]

Just finished the movie, didn't see any of the issues described here.

PS3 and a mits dlp 73"


looked pretty terrific to me. has anyone else noticed these problems?

 

[24fpssean]

Then it must be a system playback problem that the transfer is sensitive to. Only the feature film on the disc looks like garbage, the menu and special features look great. I wonder if any other plasma owners are having this issue?

 

[PaulDA]

It is one of my very favourite films and I plan to "take the risk" soon. I don't have a plasma but my bro-in-law does, so I'll try out there when I can (busy summer and he's not next door, so it could take some weeks, but I will report back).

 

[marsnkc]

The monitor I describe in #43 is a plasma, if that's any help.

 

[24fpssean]

This seems to be narrowing down to a playback device. I've got a simple Sony blu ray player, the model number of which escapes me now. Again, all other discs look astounding, except for this one blu ray.


Brought HE to work to try it out on different systems. Criterion should be paying me for this research...

 

[Roger_R]

When you mention seeing a blocky grid it sounds to me like you're seeing the macroblocks that make up the image. Is that it? The only instances I can think of where you see this is if the bitrate of the encode is too low or if there's been an error in either the encoding or decoding. Howards End is encoded in H.264 and I've seen that codec exhibit some problems where macroblocks are all over the place if the encoder's had some funky settings enabled which the decoder doesn't support.


I have an Oppo BDP-83 myself and I know it had some problems playing back MKV files with H.264 video streams if they used some special B-frame settings. The picture broke up into blocks that were almost constantly visible. Oppo updated the decoder with the latest firmware though to support these settings.


Anyway, I don't have the disc, but this is what popped into my mind when reading this thread.

 

[GlennH]

I don't have the HE Blu-ray to check. I only have the previous DVD version. But if I had to guess, this sounds like a problem that is limited to specific Blu-ray player(s) for this specific disc. The kind of thing that a firmware update could fix, if only the manufacturer(s) become aware of the problem and then identified the issue and programmed a workaround.


Such an investigation is something that Criterion could help facilitate, but if not, it's up to diligent users to identify to the player manufacturer. I have an Oppo BD-83 and they've been good about responding to user reports of problem discs. Criterion could also possibly identify something they did in their mastering process that certain players may be sensitive to, and which could be corrected on their end.


Sometimes problems like this could be fixed either way, by remastering the disc or updating the player firmware. If it's limited to just a small number of player models it usually will fall on the manufacturer(s) to create a fix. If a large number of consumers see the problem then it will usually be up to the disc manufacturer to fix. You would hope that the latter wouldn't happen too often if the disc manufacturers have any kind of decent QC program for their final product testing. But they can't test on every player model out there.


I really doubt that the display device is at fault, but anything is possible. You should definitely try the disc on different players. All those experiencing the problem should share information on their player model and firmware version to try to discern any patterns there.


I feel your pain. These kind of problems can be frustrating, and the consumer shouldn't have to be hassled by them. But that's the way it is sometimes.

 

[24fpssean]

Thank you, Roger and Glenn. The blocks, or grid, isn't really digital information falling apart, I've seen that before, it looks more like frequency interference, like one used to get with rabbit ears. Only it's the same pattern in the same spot. Also, the digital noise is just appalling, none of the picture looks good. Many have mistaken this for film grain which it absolutely is not; the film was shot on Super 35mm negative and was very fine grain.


I think it must be a player problem, like you've suggested. My player has all of its firmware updates but it may be something not available yet for my model. If it is a transfer problem, which it looks like since the menu design and special features are pristine, then Criterion need to admit it, stop telling people to "recalibrate" their televisions (this should NEVER have to be done for a single disc), and do a recall. With a quiet title like Howards End, this is never going to happen. Again, the 2010 equivalent dvd, spine #488, looks better than the blu ray. Not as sharp, but at least Pierce-Roberts' muted cinematography looks as it should.


Unable to capture images at home, I took a simple photo of part of the film, where Jacky Bast is on the bed and the train lights are flashing in the window behind her. Yes, it is blown out a bit because it is a digital photo of a paused image on a plasma montior, but the white grid-lines can clearly be seen and the digital noise is so large that even the camera picks it up. I sent it to Criterion, not as an accusation, but as a way to get to the bottom of this problem.

 

[PattyFraser]

Sean, I have a Sony, too. Maybe it's a Sony player problem? Did you check if any of the other folks on Amazon who saw this bunk picture are running Sony machines?

 

[24fpssean]

No, none of them mentioned it. Hmmm....

 

[marsnkc]

Link Removed publishes an announcement from Criterion today regarding a recall of 'Walkabout' due to a problem with its manufacture. They list the players they've identified as unable to play this disc (including 2 Sony models). Also, someone with a Memorex unit apparently reported on Criterion's site a similar issue they have with 'Stagecoach' and 'Days of Heaven'.


I wonder if HE suffers from the same manufacturing issue (again, it's very strange to my monumentally untechnical mind that only certain players experience problems that, in the case of Walkabout at least, can't be fixed with a firmware update).

 

[24fpssean]

Days of Heaven would freeze and lose track at about 47 minutes in. I updated my firmware and it now plays through fine. I've done every update possible on my model, so far. One on Amazon said he has a PS3 and that HE was unwatchable; then someone else chimed in, who didn't even leave a review, that his disc looked abysmal.


I know there was a scare with Days of Heaven but the firmware issue was resolved quickly and Criterion didn't do a recall, though I heard Amazon refused to sell another copy until the issue was resolved. Considering the amount of horrible reviews on Amazon regarding HE, I am surprised no recall has been announced.

 

[marsnkc]

Originally Posted by Roger_R

When you mention seeing a blocky grid it sounds to me like you're seeing the macroblocks that make up the image. Is that it? The only instances I can think of where you see this is if the bitrate of the encode is too low or if there's been an error in either the encoding or decoding. Howards End is encoded in H.264 and I've seen that codec exhibit some problems where macroblocks are all over the place if the encoder's had some funky settings enabled which the decoder doesn't support.


I have an Oppo BDP-83 myself and I know it had some problems playing back MKV files with H.264 video streams if they used some special B-frame settings. The picture broke up into blocks that were almost constantly visible. Oppo updated the decoder with the latest firmware though to support these settings.


Anyway, I don't have the disc, but this is what popped into my mind when reading this thread.

Roger-
It seems to my (again) untechnical mind that if HE is encoded in H.264 and that particular encode is subject to problems if 'some funky settings (are) enabled which the decoder doesn't support' - in your example the use of B-frame settings which Oppo was able to compensate for by firmware-updating its decoders - wouldn't it make sense that a similar fix could be applied by player manufacturers to overcome other problems associated with this particular encode, assuming they can identify the problem? (Or is this just an 'MKV' video stream issue that doesn't apply here?)


This brings me back to my argument about the need for some kind of industry standardization. Quite apart from 'enhancements' like BD-Live endlessly introducing 'upgrades' that result in playback issues, necessitating firmware updates, it seems to me that there is a myriad of tools being (sold successfully and) used to transfer movies (e.g., the one cited by Robert Harris that Criterion used for HE) and manufacture discs without any thought to their compatibility with existing players.

 

[Roger_R]

If it's a standard feature of one of the endless H.264 profiles that's been enabled, an update could solve the problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264#Profiles - BD discs and players are supposed to adhere to the High Profile specification to avoid problems like this in the first place.

 

[PattyFraser]

It seems like the PS3 is not having problems--otherwise your player and mine are Sonys. My set is not a plasma though, it's a LCD.

 

[marsnkc]

Patty and Sean-


If you read even some (the parts my tech-challenged brain could wrap itself around) of the article that Roger so kindly (and exremely helpfully) linked, I think you'll agree with Roger and Glenn's opinions that the issue is weighted against the players.

As Glenn states, 'Sometimes problems like this could be fixed either way, by remastering the disc or updating the player firmware. If it's limited to just a small number of player models it usually will fall on the manufacturer(s) to create a fix. If a large number of consumers see the problem then it will usually be up to the disc manufacturer to fix.'

The 15 or so unfortunates whom you mention complaining on Amazon don't constitute 'a larger number of consumers', though I feel for you all.


Roger, Glenn and I have the Oppo BDP-83 in common. Both of you use a Sony model and Sean, as you yourself say in Post #70, a firmware update for this particular problem may not yet be available for your model(s). This is the only rational explanation for most people getting a great result when others get the extreme opposite. The fact that you got the same result on a system at work can only be explained as coincidence, that that player also needs a firmware update.

 

[marsnkc]

I just realized that neither Glenn nor Roger has the BD so scratch the implication that the Oppo BD-83 is universally immune to issues with HE. As I've said, though, the disc works beautifully on mine so I would expect it to work on theirs as well.

 

[John Hodson]

My copy is winging its way to me right now, so we'll see if my Oppo BDP-80 is immune.