A Few Words About A few words about...™ Heaven's Gate -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Vincent_P]

The only home video version with the subtitles was the original MGM/UA VHS, and the clips included in the terrific Z CHANNEL: A MAGNIFICENT OBSESSION documentary also has the subs (Vincent Canby mentions the subtitles in his now infamous review, as well). I remember being very surprised when I first viewed the Image LaserDisc and the subtitles weren't there. I think it was a mistake to leave them out. I had heard that Cimino was originally going to have them reinstated for the Criterion release, but later changed his mind. Vincent

 

[tippedcollar]

No subtitles on the BFI print, so I guess it must be from the later restoration? What did these subtitles entail? Did they translate some of the more inaudible dialogue? Interesting...

 

[Vincent_P]

No subtitles on the BFI print, so I guess it must be from the later restoration? What did these subtitles entail? Did they translate some of the more inaudible dialogue? Interesting...

Foreign-language dialogue scenes. When I get a chance, I'll go through my VHS and compile the subtitles and match them with timings on the Criterion version and post them here. Vincent

 

[Noel Aguirre]

There were subtitles when I saw it theatrically in the original run, and there are no subtitles now.

Thanks for the confirmation. I thought so because at Lincoln Center those passages now don't make sense unless you understand Ukrainian, Polish or whatever it was. I prefer the original- sepia, intermission, and subtitles.

 

[Noel Aguirre]

The s

No subtitles on the BFI print, so I guess it must be from the later restoration? What did these subtitles entail? Did they translate some of the more inaudible dialogue? Interesting...

The subtitles were for the brief but expository moments when the Eastern European immigrants are speaking natively i.e. when Walken first appears, the couple in the buggy passes Kristofferson delivering the new buggy to Ella, etc. Now they don't make sense.

 

[Noel Aguirre]

I've already voiced my issues with the disc, which are much the same as tippedcollar's here, earlier in the thread. I just want to say that, unlike him, I hadn't seen the movie in years prior to the Blu-ray and didn't approach the disc with any sort of preconceived notions of how it's supposed to look. I didn't compare it against older video transfers or memories of theatrical screenings decades ago. All I had to judge by was the disc itself. Nevertheless, the colors almost immediately looked off to me - artificial, boosted, and just wrong. It doesn't look much like 35mm film to me. It looks digital.

When I saw it projected at Lincoln Center I too thought it looked digital. I was hoping that it was just projected digitally but the criterion looks pretty much the same. It's a shame because the original negs were destroyed (remember Cimino Not the studios pulled it!) The original was magnificent looking regardless of what you thought the content was.

 

[Vincent_P]

While I don't have an issue with the new look, something did occur to me- could the process of changing the YCM (Yellow / Cyan/ Magenta) separation masters to RGB (Red / Green / Blue) alter the look? According to the Criterion restoration featurette, the Yellow layer becomes Blue, the Cyan becomes Red, and the Magenta becomes Green for the purpose of the digital recombining. Could that affect the final color values? Also, does anybody know if the subtitles were present on the prints of the short version? They're not on the European DVD, but then again neither are the various intertitles identifying changes in location so that doesn't really mean anything. Vincent

 

[Noel Aguirre]

While I don't have an issue with the new look, something did occur to me- could the process of changing the YCM (Yellow / Cyan/ Magenta) separation masters to RGB (Red / Green / Blue) alter the look? According to the Criterion restoration featurette, the Yellow layer becomes Blue, the Cyan becomes Red, and the Magenta becomes Green for the purpose of the digital recombining. Could that affect the final color values? Also, does anybody know if the subtitles were present on the prints of the short version? They're not on the European DVD, but then again neither are the various intertitles identifying changes in location so that doesn't really mean anything. Vincent

If memory serves they were there as the shorter version was supposed make the plot more coherent- without them they certainly wouldn't. Speaking of the shorter version I'll never forget the opening credits when 4 or 5 editor's titles appeared. Is that a first for a film- that many officially listed? Does anyone know the exact amount?

 

[Moe Dickstein]

It's often an artistic choice NOT to translate foreign dialogue - it puts the audience in the position of other characters who also don't understand what is being said. It can also be done when the subs are undermining the point of the scene (meaning that you should be looking at the tone and faces of the actors and the content of what they are saying is less important). The best example I know of this is in the remake of Thomas Crown Affair when Rene Russo is interrogating the false robber in Russian - McTiernan in the commentary talks about how the scene stopped working when they got the subtitles on it, because suddenly everyone was just reading what she said and not paying attention to how she was doing what she was doing - so off they came.

 

[Vincent_P]

It's often an artistic choice NOT to translate foreign dialogue - it puts the audience in the position of other characters who also don't understand what is being said. It can also be done when the subs are undermining the point of the scene (meaning that you should be looking at the tone and faces of the actors and the content of what they are saying is less important). The best example I know of this is in the remake of Thomas Crown Affair when Rene Russo is interrogating the false robber in Russian - McTiernan in the commentary talks about how the scene stopped working when they got the subtitles on it, because suddenly everyone was just reading what she said and not paying attention to how she was doing what she was doing - so off they came.

While your point is no doubt valid, the issue here is that HEAVEN'S GATE originally DID have the subtitles during it's one week run in New York after the premiere (as per the initial reviews which mention the subs), and the original MGM/UA VHS release of the long version, and apparently the wide theatrical release of the short version. They were omitted from all following releases, and left off of the new Criterion restoration, as well as the "Vilmos Zsigmond approved" photochemical restoration of the premiere cut from the early-2000s. Vincent

 

[Vincent_P]

Speaking of the shorter version I'll never forget the opening credits when 4 or 5 editor's titles appeared. Is that a first for a film- that many officially listed? Does anyone know the exact amount?

Four editors are credited. It's the same as the long cut (in fact, the opening credits are the same for both versions). Terrence Malick's recent films have had up to five editors credited. Vincent

 

[Vincent_P]

Following are the English-language subtitles for foreign-language dialogue sections of the long version of HEAVEN’S GATE, as transcribed by me from the MGM/UA VHS release of the film. The time stamps are to the closest second that they would appear on the new Criterion Blu-ray release. Please note that not all of the foreign dialogue was subtitled. 21:52 - “Come on.” 21:55 - “Hurry, Michael, Hurry!” 21:59 - “Come here, hold this.” 22:24 - “Come on, help me. Hurry! Hurry, Michael!” 22:29 - “Hurry, Michael, faster!” 23:08 - “It’s me, Kovach. Who’s there?” 23:13 - “It’s Kovach. Michael Kovach.” 23:20 - “What do you want?” 23:23 - “What’s going on? What is it?” 23:37 - “Michael, stand up. Stand up. Please get up!” 31:02 - “Please, mister, give us some money.” 33:58 - “Hoodlums! God will punish you for this!” 36:34 - “Oh my God, have you gone crazy?” 37:17 - “You scum!” 37:19 - “You are all evil here. You call this a free country!” 37:30 - “Aren’t you ashamed? May God kill you all!” 37:37 - “Murderers! Evil bastards!” 57:46 - “Last bets.” 57:49 - “This is the last fight!” 57:52 - “How much do you bet?” 57:57 - “Place your bets.” 58:00 - “Do I hear one dollar?” 58:04 - “One dollar? Who beats a dollar?” 58:08 - “Who beats one dollar?” 58:11 - “Who beats fifty cents? Fifty cents.” 58:25 - “Two dollars!” 58:27 - “Five cents for the white one, sir.” 58:30 - “Five cents, please.” 58:35 - “Idiot.” 1:07:10 - “He’s going to that place on a Sunday!” 1:07:13 - “I’m getting my new microscope tomorrow.” 1:07:17 - “So what? Why are you changing the subject?" 1:07:20 - “I’m talking about the Marshall. He’s going to that bordello instead of to Church." 1:07:25 - “Decent people go to Church.” 1:16:10 - “Mayor Lezak! Everyone move together.” 1:16:13 - “Can you move the children in?” 1:16:17 - “Not all of them, Push them together.” 1:16:21 - “Can you see them now?” 1:16:51 - “What is she doing here?” 1:17:51 - “Oh shit.” 1:34:22 - “Come back soon.” 1:34:25 - “Hello handsome.” 1:34:27 - “What are you doing here? This isn’t your day.” 1:34:30 - “How are you, Nate?” 1:34:36 - “Hurry, you have to leave.” 1:41:44 - “Quiet, here he comes.” 1:41:58 - “He’s the one who killed Michael Kovach.” 1:42:05 - “Don’t look at him.” 1:42:10 - “Be quiet.” 1:46:57 - “Take a handsome picture of my husband.” 1:50:27 - “This is our land. We own it.” 1:50:30 - “Keep going. Don’t look at them.” 1:50:34 - “Be brave.” 1:50:52 - “Keep going.” 1:51:01 - “Go home.” 1:51:05 - “Please go home.” 2:15:43 - “We’ve got our land claims to settle.” 2:16:01 - “Quiet.” 2:17:28 - “What kind of list? Tell us.” 2:17:36 - “That’s almost everybody here.” 2:17:40 - “That’s Kovach’s widow.” 2:17:44 - “Whose names are on the list?” 2:18:22 - “Be quiet.” 2:18:41 - “In the name of the Father, the Son…” 2:19:00 - “Be quiet.” 2:19:12 - “Why you?” 2:19:18 - “Whore! It’s all her fault!” 2:19:23 - “Give her to them!” 2:19:28 - “Give them the whore!” 2:19:30 - “Sit down!” 2:19:35 - “You’re all acting like cowards!” 2:39:59 - “I won’t go along with you. I refuse to be a part of this.” 2:40:09 - “Charles, don’t…” 2:40:11 - “This is not your concern.” 2:40:14 - “Come on, there’s no time to lose.” 2:40:43 - “What happens if he won’t help us?” 2:40:51 - “Be careful, for God’s sake.” 2:42:22 - “Go on, tell him.” 2:50:35 - “Let me through.” 2:50:37 - “All this talking, everything you’re saying… it’s useless.” 2:51:16 - “Don’t believe everything he says.” 2:51:18 - “Why not? He speaks the truth.” 2:51:30 - “We all know…” 2:51:33 - “… it’s against the law to take branded cattle from the open range.” 2:51:39 - “That’s right, the law is the law.” 2:51:43 - “Mr. Mayor…!” 2:51:50 - “You’re breaking the law.” 2:52:06 - “Traitor!” 2:52:14 - “One thing I want to tell you…” 2:52:18 - “I’ve seen too many people die.” 2:52:20 - “And I don’t want to die.” 2:52:23 - “Fool! We’ll all die!” 2:52:25 - “Join us! Don’t listen to him!” 2:52:30 - “The rich are opposed…” 2:52:33 - “… to anything…” 2:52:36 - “… that would improve things in this country.” 2:53:15 - “George, you tell them!” 2:53:42 - “You’re cutting your own throats!” 2:54:35 - “Burn in hell, whore!” 2:57:20 - “Jesus Christ is the only physician he’s got here.” - Vincent Pereira

 

[tippedcollar]

could the process of changing the YCM (Yellow / Cyan/ Magenta) separation masters to RGB (Red / Green / Blue) alter the look? According to the Criterion restoration featurette, the Yellow layer becomes Blue, the Cyan becomes Red, and the Magenta becomes Green for the purpose of the digital recombining.

This is simply inverting the colours, so shouldn't make a difference. I do however believe the overall process of splitting the colours into YCM and then re-combining has had a strange effect. I've tweaked my projector's colour profile to boost the yellows and suppress the greens, which is better than nothing for now... Thanks for the subs, Vince.

 

[Moe Dickstein]

And certainly Cimino had ample opportunity to reinstate the subs this time around, and he didn't. And thanks for transcribing all those subs for us, very nice to have them.

 

[Vincent_P]

And certainly Cimino had ample opportunity to reinstate the subs this time around, and he didn't. And thanks for transcribing all those subs for us, very nice to have them.

You're welcome, and yes, in fact I heard Cimino originally intended to include them, but later changed his mind. While I don't necessarily think ALL of the subtitles are important (i.e., the subs during the cock fight), I do think some of them are and should have been retained (i.e., George's wife reacting to Averill going to the Hog Ranch, and the dialogue during the heated "town hall" sequences at the Heaven's Gate roller rink...). Vincent

 

[Moe Dickstein]

Would certainly interesting to hear him discuss his thought process on that topic, and others. But alas no commentary.

 

[Vincent_P]

If he does any open Q&As for this "new version", perhaps somebody in the audience should ask him. Vincent

 

[TonyD]

The Heavens Gate FB page posted that subtitle information earlier tonight.

 

[Vincent_P]

The Heavens Gate FB page posted that subtitle information earlier tonight.

And I posted it here first. Read the posting at the Heavens Gate FB page- "Vincent Pereira" is credited for the transcription. I posted the information both here and there. I can confirm that I posted it here first, then I posted it on the Heaven's Gate Facebook page a minute or two later, where I am an administrator. Vincent Pereira

 

[TonyD]

I saw that, I didn't know you were the admin over there though.