A Few Thoughts About....Blu-ray/DVD FLIPPER DISCS (1 Viewer)

[RickER]

Originally Posted by Cees Alons /img/forum/go_quote.gif">
Then it's THEIR discs, and you won't get them!

 

[Sam Posten]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
Often, such "innovations" are so very lacking in understanding the target user, who are human (of the average variety), not robots (nor the relatively few of us obsessed enthusiasts nor Vulcans or the like /img/vbsmilies/htf/tongue.gif).
_Man_

Just keep in mind that average is an interesting concept. While roughly half of a population will be of above average intelligence the vast majority will have an above average number of legs!

 

[Jeff Cooper]

One thing I found rather silly in Ron's first post is that the quote from the HD-DVD guy goes to great lengths to say how they identified the glue issue and fixed it for the HD-DVD combos and that the process was much more reliable after that.

Then the very next quote goes on to say that the blu flipper process is a completely different and brand new process! Thus invalidating any of the "we fixed it" comments from the first quote. This is a brand new process and thus has no real lasting data yet on whether or not it will actually produce good results.

I see that they have been sending discs out to major web owners like Ron here at HTF and Bill over at digitalbits, in order to get the good word out that these will work. This is also rather silly, as just a few discs sent out to a few prominent spokespersons will have a great chance of functioning perfectly properly. However, when you mass send them out to millions of people, that's when the actual real useful data can be obtained.

Finally, I just think that having both versions on one disc doesn't work for the concept. If I want both versions, then I want them on separate discs, so I can keep my blu ray pristine, in my main viewing environment, while the DVD I want separate to take around to all the different places that I might have DVD players that I want to watch it on. I sure am not going to be bringing the blu in the car for the kids to watch on the portable player!

 

[DaveF]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Cooper
Finally, I just think that having both versions on one disc doesn't work for the concept. If I want both versions, then I want them on separate discs, so I can keep my blu ray pristine, in my main viewing environment, while the DVD I want separate to take around to all the different places that I might have DVD players that I want to watch it on. I sure am not going to be bringing the blu in the car for the kids to watch on the portable player!

In my one month with Blu Ray I've found this to be a symptom of the greater weaknesses of Blu Ray: it's designed by committee for a committee, not for the actual user.

 

[JayMacey]

I'm a huge film buff with over 2,000 DVD titles & 250+ Blu-Ray titles. I'm 26 years old. Probably in the target demo.

I got burned by Alfred Hitchcock Presents DVD's with one side working, another not. Of course, I didn't watch all the episodes on all the discs within the 30 day return window. I got burned. That permanently turned me off from flippers.

I am in love with Disney's current model of Blu-Ray, DVD & Digital Copy. I'll glady pay $5 or so more for the addition of the 2 alternate copies. In fact, I now buy MORE Disney Blu-Rays due to that fact. I like knowing that I can watch the Blu-Ray in my home theater room, take the DVD to a friends (or watch in my room, etc) & take the digital copy on the go on my iPhone, iPod, or upcoming Apple Tablet (which should be PERFECT for digital copies).

The double sided discs- no sale for me. Blu-Ray / DVD or Blu-Ray /DVD/Digital Copy & thats a sale for me - even a blind buy on titles that I might not have otherwise.

 

[Douglas Monce]

I'm not sure why figuring out what side to put up is so difficult. HD DVD combos were exactly the same. If you see the red ring, you’re watching the HD DVD side. On blu-ray flippers, if you see the blue ring, you’re watching the blu-ray. I'm sorry but whats so hard about that?

Also if you have trouble reading the label on a flipper disc then you probably also have trouble reading the text in a novel or a news paper or a prescription bottle, and should consider seeing an eye doctor.

Doug

 

[Andy_MT]

what is this obsession with flippers that Universal seems to have ? they were the only ones left doing them back in HD-DVD, now they're the only ones doing them in BLU-RAY. if the other studios are adopting the separate dvd/blu model, and it must be working for them ... why doesn't this work for Universal ? do they own the patent for flipper technology ? well, you have to wonder.

i can't think of one positive thing these flippers provide consumers. all i see is negative. i won't regurgitate the reasons as they've all been covered in previous posts, but it's all bad news for consumers.

and who's to say these things won't stop working 6 months from now. they may work now, but that's little comfort in the future if we get problems. are Universal going to replace our discs if things turn out for the worse ?

having been burned on HD-DVD combos, i'm strongly against these flippers. i can only hope that sanity prevails in the UK and this technology gets turned away and sent back to from whence it came.

 

[DaveF]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"> I'm not sure why figuring out what side to put up is so difficult. HD DVD combos were exactly the same. If you see the red ring, you’re watching the HD DVD side. On blu-ray flippers, if you see the blue ring, you’re watching the blu-ray. I'm sorry but whats so hard about that?

Also if you have trouble reading the label on a flipper disc then you probably also have trouble reading the text in a novel or a news paper or a prescription bottle, and should consider seeing an eye doctor.

Doug

I don't know if the inner-ring wordings are labels or this-side-up indicators.

I know from years of experience that the shiny side goes down, so data goes down. I get a DVD flipper and the inner ring says "Anamorphic". Am I looking at the anamorphic side, so I should turn it over so that shiny side is down to play the anamorphic version, like I've been trained? Or is it a "this side up" indicator, so the label faces up and the opposite side is the "shiny" side, facing down.

So I have to think about it every single time because it doesn't make since and doesn't follow conventions. And this minor inconvenience gets in the way every time I encounter a flipper.

With DVDs, I don't think I paid much attention to whether I was buying a flipper. With Blu Ray, since I don't intend to buy as often from the get go, I will actively avoid buying flipper sets.

 

[MielR]

I'm not a fan of the flipper idea, either. Firstly, I always seem to get fingerprints on the top play surface when putting the disk in the player, or returning it to its case. When a disc has artwork, I know I can safely put my thumb or index finger on the top of the disk for extra support without risking playback issues due to smudges. Trying to remove fingerprints from any type of disk is not fun.

But the biggest concern for me is longevity. Even if the disc plays perfectly now, what about 5, 10 years from now?

Given a choice, I'd rather have separate DVD & Blu-ray discs, and I imagine that option must be cheaper to manufacture too, due to the added complexity that must go into making the flipper discs.

 

[Douglas Monce]

Originally Posted by DaveF /forum/thread/297010/a-few-thoughts-about-blu-ray-dvd-flipper-discs/90#post_3650813

Quote:
I don't know if the inner-ring wordings are labels or this-side-up indicators.

I know from years of experience that the shiny side goes down, so data goes down. I get a DVD flipper and the inner ring says "Anamorphic". Am I looking at the anamorphic side, so I should turn it over so that shiny side is down to play the anamorphic version, like I've been trained? Or is it a "this side up" indicator, so the label faces up and the opposite side is the "shiny" side, facing down.

So I have to think about it every single time because it doesn't make since and doesn't follow conventions. And this minor inconvenience gets in the way every time I encounter a flipper.

With DVDs, I don't think I paid much attention to whether I was buying a flipper. With Blu Ray, since I don't intend to buy as often from the get go, I will actively avoid buying flipper sets.

Again I'm not sure what convention isn't being followed. Most flipper discs I have, the label facing up is what you are going to watch. (the only exception is those that only have writing on one side and I'm not sure I even have any of those) Forget about what side the data is on, the label is the only thing to worry about, label up, thats what you are watching.. And again they make it easy, just look for the blue ring, if its facing up, your watching the blu-ray. No brainer.

Doug

 

[CraigF]

When these have disappeared from the market, we'll see what the "no brainer" was. /img/vbsmilies/htf/smile.gif In the meantime, we can use them but not necessarily prefer them. Looking back, one has to wonder if 2-sidedness isn't the kiss of death...

Originally Posted by Douglas Monce /forum/thread/297010/a-few-thoughts-about-blu-ray-dvd-flipper-discs/90#post_3650882
No brainer.

 

[DaveF]

Originally Posted by Douglas Monce /forum/thread/297010/a-few-thoughts-about-blu-ray-dvd-flipper-discs/90#post_3650882
Again I'm not sure what convention isn't being followed.

The convention is: side covered in artwork goes up. Flippers don't have that. I don't know what a labeled inner hub means. I don't know if it's consistent from disc to disc, studio to studio. Even if I have that set in my mind, I have to take a moment to squint at the ring, spin it to see what it says, and read it.
Not everyone has this bit of confusion; as I noted, it may be just those of us with a particularly rule-driven view of the world. But flippers break the rules we've learned.
These aren't great problems of Herculean undertaking. But they are an unneeded nuisance in what should be the trivial task of putting a disc into the player.
Flipped around, if you will, what problems for the movie watcher do dual sided discs solve? What is made easier or better with these discs?

 

[Scott-S]

I am with Dave on this.

I think the problem I have is that I know what side the laser is in a player. Therefore, I end up second guessing the whole blue ring up, or blue ring down thing. My brain thinks that the blue ring is the side that is a Blu-Ray. So I think, if the blue ring is the side that the Blu-ray is on, then surely it must go down when placing it in a player because that is the side that the laser will see.

It sounds like what the others are saying here is the blue ring is actually placed on the opposite side because Joe Six-pack doesn't know anything about what side is actually being read.

This dumbing down is confusing to those of us who know whats going on. If that makes sense. The label should be on the same side as the data.

It doesn't make sense to my brain that they are labeling the discs on the opposite side of the actual target. This is like putting the "Side A" on the opposite side of a cassette tape, then telling people that the label should face inward when inserting. LOL

 

[Jason Charlton]

Originally Posted by Douglas Monce /forum/thread/297010/a-few-thoughts-about-blu-ray-dvd-flipper-discs/90#post_3650882
...Most flipper discs I have, the label facing up is what you are going to watch. (the only exception is those that only have writing on one side and I'm not sure I even have any of those)...

There - that's the problem. It's NOT a universal convention!
I recall in the early days of DVDs with widescreen on one side and pan-and-scan on the other different studios had different standards when it came to labeling the inner hub. I could never remember which studio did what, so invariably, I'd load a disc only to discover it was upside down.
One other thought with the target demographic for these flippers - families that want to have the DVD side for their kids to watch in the car on long trips. Even kids who can't read yet, can easily load a one-sided DVD into the car player, but with the flippers, mom or dad will be needed to load it right-side up (provided they can even reach the player...).

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

For myself, if Universal insists on doing flippers to provide the DVD version, then I hope they'll also offer separate BD releases w/out the DVD version included so I can decide for myself which to buy.

In nearly all cases, I won't want the DVD version enough to go for the flipper, especially if it turns out to cost extra.

In the long run, I expect to be able to play BDs just about anywhere I (or the rest of my family) would actually want to watch a specific movie -- and I'd rather just keep some old DVDs around for the short term. I don't want the extra risks (and useability issues) involved just for a short term solution on media I buy (and expect to last a very long time). Also, aesthetically speaking, I'd stil much prefer having some kind of topside labeling/artwork on my discs beyond mere utilitarian purposes.

Finally, to be honest, I don't know that Universal even has that many titles in their library that I'd care all that much to own w/ a DVD version included. It's not like they have a ton of good family/kids-oriented content that would do well on BD, have they? Well, I guess there are some old classics like Hitchcock and some classic monster flicks. But in all such cases, if I wanted them on DVD that much, I would've owned them on DVD already. For most, I'd think it's mostly just new/recent day-and-date releases that matter -- and for many of us, it'll mainly be family/kids-oriented titles among the new/recent day-and-date releases.

_Man_

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

One thing. If Universal wants to test the market -- which I suspect they do considering their past history and that they're being cautious to roll this out only for an already-in-release, popular catalog set -- I'd think they should either knock down the (street) price on the old, BD-only boxset to match the flippers *OR* finally break up the BD-only set to be sold just like the flippers (and at the same prices).

With the way they're testing it now, it almost seems like they want people to only buy the flippers in this case so they can beta test the flippers on (a much larger group of potential) consumers (both in terms of marketing and in terms of format reliability) ...

_Man_

 

[DaveF]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott-S
It doesn't make sense to my brain that they are labeling the discs on the opposite side of the actual target. This is like putting the "Side A" on the opposite side of a cassette tape, then telling people that the label should face inward when inserting. LOL

/img/vbsmilies/htf/thumbsup.gif That's *exactly* it!

 

[Yumbo]

The fact that there is a debate about the flipper shows negativity from the get-go. Yes it is historical.

Someone has already pointed out the advantages and attractiveness of true combo packs.

No one has asked about the proposed multi-layer (Single-sided) version, where the player picks up the appropriate layer.
Remember the setting on your players?

No one has questioned the scenario, where viewer wants to watch the BRD, but the flipper is lost with all the other flippers (try reading a few in a row) in the kids room or in the car somewhere, and cannot watch at the same time separately.

As for sales numbers, and polls etc., I for one as a rentailer, despise flippers for the propensity to get scratched, lack of identifiable labelling, and the extra space a 2nd copy takes up, let alone cost.

As someone else has pointed out, we are likely to place an order for a COMBO edition, rather than not, and eschew the DVD edition.
Thereafter, as more renters see ONLY a BRD cover, the subtle visual advertising promotes BRD even more.

We've made a policy change to stop ordering DVD only titles, and favouring BRD, especially multi-disc combos.

As far as Universal goes, we've ordered all their new catalog combos (8 Mile etc.), as opposed to the BRD only editions.

We will NOT ever order ANY flipper editions whatsoever.
We do have the Bourne Collection already in any case.

The hard coating will NOT save the BRDs from failing.
We've seen BRDs get handled like DVDs, and hello!
We simply enacted a policy of "Scratch it, and you've bought it", and big difference in disc care behaviour.
Buffing DVDs is work in hell as a rentailer, and not cheap.
Given that, we love renting BRDs, as they come back clean, and can go out again immediately.

FLIPPERS are not practical on any level, except for an "I don't care attitude".

And where do we get out stats from?

In the past 10 years, we've checked in 437,000 rentals while maintaining a clean disc (scratch free) policy.
Looking forward to less buffing this year, and more movie watching!

 

[Adam Gregorich]

No one has asked about the proposed multi-layer (Single-sided) version, where the player picks up the appropriate layer.
Remember the setting on your players?

That was on HD DVD players and I don't think it was ever tried with more than a dual layer (1 DVD, 1 HD DVD). These are 4 layer discs.

 

[Adam Gregorich]

Originally Posted by Bryan X /forum/thread/297010/a-few-thoughts-about-blu-ray-dvd-flipper-discs/60#post_3650204
That the disc plays without any problems is the main thing, but even so, I don't like flipper discs. I just like having artwork on the top of the disc. The flippers just look chintzy to me. I would much rather have a dvd disc included in the blu-ray package if a dvd version must be included.

I understand that for some people artwork is a big deal and they will be disappointed with flippers. I have never cared about artwork. For discs that have it, I see it for the 15 seconds it takes to move the disc from the case to the player.