A different opinion on the launch of Blu-Ray (1 Viewer)

[Cees Alons]

Problem is: if finally they succeed being as good as the batch of most of the current HD DVD titles, then again: why BD?

Given the many reviews I'm reading all over the 'net, I can no longer expect the BD releases to be significantly better. Certainly not PQ-wise, and the "extras" are yet to be seen.

History learns that you can win several battles and still lose the war, but indeed, HD DVD seems to have won a few of the first battles!


Cees

 

[Rob_Walton]

The same question could have been asked of VHS when it came out after Beta, and the answer was recording times. The consumer (and certainly this consumer) wanted greater recording time. In the case of this format war HD DVD looks as though it's repeating all the mistakes that plagued the DVD recordable formats (have you seen the beast they hope to launch some time soon?) while BD seem as though it was designed with recording in mind. Since many HD options such as satellite and cable remain married to Mpeg2 (and will take a long time to upgrade their networks) the need for larger recordable mediums is fairly clear.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

As has been said many, many times,

because over the long term, 50 gigs will provide more advantages for content providers and the HT enthusiast than 30 gigs, as will 1.5 x the data-bandwidth (allowing for more lossless languages, high-res audio tracks etc.).

 

[RobertR]

I'm still skeptical about the need for certain types of extras, but the extra bandwidth argument does appear to potentially have merit (assuming it IS used to assure topnotch quality, and not the extras I mentioned). I do think anything beyond 20/48 lossless is overkill, and I can't see any studio putting out audio that's better than that for movies.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

The nice thing about more bandwidth is that you could have *more than one* high-res lossless audio track.

For instance... having a 24/96 or 24/48 movie soundtrack *and* and 24/96 music-only track. That would be incredible for movies like LOTR, Ben-Hur, or Amadeus that would both be good candidates for lossless audio during film-play *and* be a great opportunity for a "free DVD-A soundtrack" in the form of a music-only 24/96 lossless music-only track accompanying the feature film.

They really wanted to put a music track on the last round of LOTR sets but had to scrap them so they wouldn't compromise the quality of the feature film. With the added space/bandwidth that BD could offer, there would be no compromise.

 

[Rob_Walton]

David, looking at the title under your name has left me wondering if Miramax is still in existance with the exit of the Weisenstiens (or however you spell their names!) ? Also, do you not review discs from Buena Vista?

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Hey Rob,

anything owned by Disney (which still seems to include Mirmax DVDs so far)( along with B.V. which is used for most family-style Disney titles.

 

[Cees Alons]

David,

That's certainly true and I know you can do more with more space. But the point is: if one and the same movie is available on both formats, and they look exactly as good on both, then why would I, or J6P, or anyone have a preference for a format that can do more for other releases?

And will those extras on those other releases merit a more problematic format on 1 disc over a more relaxed (and less expensive) solution on two discs?

Apparently not all movies (releases) need the 50 Gb, and no-one needs all possible soundtracks on 1 disc.

Furthermore, it starts to look as if HD DVD can upgrade to 30Gb and 45Gb without much trouble, in the future. That may still be uncertain (especially the 45Gb aspect), but if it's true, they can more easily adjust the individual release to it's needs, and - even if you believe that about 50Gb is absolutely needed for a movie to be represented in splendid high resolution and with brilliant sound tracks - BD certainly loses one obvious advantage.
In fact, the only advantage it seems to have over HD DVD, I think.

Like you, I still favour BD over HD DVD, but I'm adjusting my opinion based on current facts.

I repeat: winning a battle certainly doesn't imply winning the war, but HD DVD made a very strong statement recently.


Cees

 

[RobertR]

I don't think that's a strong argument for the extra bandwidth. The failure of the "hires" DVD-A tells me that there's no market for 24/96 audio. Going beyond 20/48 as the end product in the home is pointless IMO, and I doubt that any movie tracks are recorded in anything better than 24/48 (certainly not the vast majority).

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Cees,

HD DVD cannot move to 45 gigs for movie discs ever. Period. It's not part of the HD DVD spec. For computer storage yes. For movie discs no.


There is no way that a 30 gig HD DVD can present a special edition like LOTR with the same features that could be made availabe on a 50 gig disc with greater bandwidth.

Will such advantages apply to every title? No. Just like the advantages of dual-layer or DTS encoding don't apply to every DVD.

However,

I know that many fans of movies like Star Wars and LOTR would love to have high-res lossless music-only tracks and even HD video commentary (the ability to toggle to a 1080p alternate-angle for video commentary about special effects etc)... and this is something that wouldn't be easy for HD DVD without compromising the feature film. The loss of the music-only tracks on the SE DVD set on the last LOTR discs was one of the biggest complaints by fans on many LOTR boards a couple of years back.

Not to mention the many applications for increased bandwidth that have yet to be discovered but could quickly become standard. Think of how quickly the studios learned to use 8 gigs of space on SD-DVD... space that originally was considered overkill!

I'm not trying to argue whether these advantages will make BD succeed or fail... just pointing out there merit among the enthusiast community.

And RoberR,

don't let the lackluster sale of SACD/DVD-A fool you. Many of us avoided those DOA formats because of cost or title selection and the whole fiasco of 2 incompatible formats. I know that I did. But I'm licking my chops over the thought of 24/48 or 24/96 audio on my movie titles...

 

[Ed B]

I too have a problem with thinking that the game consoles will determine what format will win. Without going into off topic details on the gaming industry Sony is not going to do as well in the next gen console wars as they think. I dont count on the 360 HD-DVD add-on to make up much of a difference in the sales as much as I do the PS3 making that big of a dent in the sales.

The bottom line is the consumers will pick the winner of the battle. When the word gets out about the real differences between the 2 HDV formats and that the majority of people dont have the hardware to see the difference I think the item with the much lower price tag will win the war. Look at what happened with Sony's UMD movies for their PSP. The consumers stopped buying them and the rest of the industry is cutting back on production of the movies.

I disagree with some of the people here and say that there should be a single winner of the format and the looser needs to go away. If there are 3 DVD media options it will effect us all in some way. The mom and pop rental stores that will not afford to purchase 3 copies of each movie, the B&M stores that will cut back on shelf space (less titles) to have room to hold 3 versions of each movie, and the larger rental chains which will have to raise prices to carry all formats.

 

[Austan]

Here we go again. Last verified account, Sony sold 8.2 million $25-$35 UMD movies. If you spend $500-$600 on a PS3, then spending $25-$35 for a Blu-Ray movie is nothing... XBOX360 owners need to spend $200ish for the HD-DVD drive first before they can view a HD-DVD movie, so that eliminates "spur of the moment purchases".

This is why the PS3 makes a huge impact:
1) PS3 owners might inflate the # of Blu-Ray movies sold (trend history with UMD)
2) PS3 game standard is Blu-Ray. Millions of disks and lasers are needed and the sheer quantity will help drive down prices.

 

[RobertR]

David, you seem to be implying that DVD-A and SACD failed because of "cost or title selection". Honestly, I think you're being disingenuous. The real reason they failed is that people simply didn't CARE about "hires" audio (even a lot of audiophiles). Well done redbook CD serves people just fine (the benefits of hires audio are questionable to many audiophiles). If people had REALLY wanted "hires audio", it would have succeeded, just as VHS succeeded because people WANTED it. Hell, most are satisfied with lossy formats! So it is with movie soundtracks (which need less "purity" than music). I say the market for anything better than, say, 20/48 lossless won't be there, and it's questionable whether most people will care about anything better than high bit rate DD+.

And I still say the demand for the ability to "toggle" to a simultaneous HD video commentary will be very small.

 

[Ed B]

8.2 Million does not impress me in that the system was released in Japan 12-04 and that to date (according to Sony) 20 Million units sold. So based on that math for every 3rd PS3 that sells this holiday we'll see 1 movie purchased?

I know that the PS3 will sell more BR movies then the PSP sold UMD, but I dont feel that the gaming industry is going to make or break the HDV battle.

My original point of referrence to UMD was that as a technology it is one not adopted by the consumers and the technology is not doing well because of this.


PSP sales reference
http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdatapsp_e.html

 

[DaViD Boulet]

RR,

I implied that those were two (often quoted) reasons why they failed. Two reasons that I hear repeated all the time among audiophiles. I also said that the format war between SACD and DVD-A was another reason. I also said that I perasonally stayed away from these formats for all these reasons... and I'm a tube-loving 2-channel audiophile who listens to jitter and knows how much better SACD/DVD-A can sound. I just was so pissed off about the whole format-war I refused to bother.

I'm not being disingenuous about anything. Nor am I suggesting that high-res lossless will be the strongest selling point for every movie title.

BTW, I do think that HD extras (including video commentary) actually will grow in demand as HD media matures. It will be the "wow... remember when we only had DVD and didn't even have video commentary?" feature of the new era of HD... that's my prediction. I think with titles that really command commentary that goes beyond the spoken word (where special effects are involved) it will quickly gain favor.

 

[Cees Alons]

David,

That's fair enough. If you think that, so be it.

But I am beginning to think otherwise.
Only time will tell.


Cees

 

[DaViD Boulet]

True enough!

 

[Shawn Perron]

There is no way you can make a case that there was an adequate title selection for your average consumer. I know that there were about 3 titles that I'd ever care to hear between the 2 formats. How many top 50 hits were released for the formats in a timely manner? If you want to sell a format, you release what is selling. Release master quality recordings of top songs while piracy is in full swing? Don't think so.

My whole take on the situation is that they attempted to launch the hi-res formats far too late. By the time they tried to supplant the 20+ year old cd format, people had already realized they were quite happy with sub cd quality mp3s. When you can't convince people they need cd sound, how can you ever expect them to want 96/24?

 

[Austan]

If Sony sells 2 million PS3 by Christmas, with the 1/3 formula then that means there will be 650,000 Blu-Ray movies bought by PS3 owners.

HD-DVD has confirmed 10,000 HD-A1 sold and 20,000 shipped to the US. Lets say they sell 50,000 units by Christmas and each person also bought 10 movies... That's still 500,000 vs 650,000... Sony has also announced it expects to sell 6 million PS3 by end of 1Q 2007 and again 1/3 formula makes it 2 million Blu-Ray movies owned by PS3 owners.

 

[RobertR]

I count at least 4 "ifs" in that post, which makes any prediction about the impact of the PS3 nothing but a guess. A big "if" left out was how well the game console will play BR.