2003 ML Baseball Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

[Patrick Larkin]

The NL MVP Candidates mentioned here...

Player Avg HR Hits RBI Slug SB
Bonds .342 44 127 87 .760 7
Thome .268 43 148 123 .565 0
Pujols .364 43 207 124 .680 4
Sheffield .327 37 179 122 .594 18

Again, how does Bonds win it hands down? 87 RBI? And if you are selecting on who is actually most valuable to their team, how can Thome not win it? Does anyone actually think that Thome isn't the reason for the Phillies success this year?

I thin you could give it to any of those four guys depending on the criteria you are using...

 

[Patrick Sun]

You have to factor in those intentional walks that Bonds gets in the analysis, and his slugging percentage is pretty amazing as well, IIRC. Bonds is probably the most feared hitter in the NL, especially in the 9th inning with a chance to drive in the winning runs with a homer or a hit.

 

[Brian Lawrence]

On Base %

Thome .360
Bonds .534


Slugging %

Thome .567
Bonds .760


Walks

Thome 107
Bonds 145


Strikeouts

Thome 172
Bonds 54

 

[Steve_Tk]

I wish Javy Lopez could be on that list, if you are going to compare Thome then you have to add Javy.

Player Avg HR Hits RBI Slug SB On Base %

Lopez .326 42 144 104 .691 0 .381

437 at bats batting in the 7th spot most of the year, in only 122 games. And hell, look at the guys numbers last year. Batting more than 100 points higher. Has 50 more RBIs and more than doubled the amount of HRs. If you are going to mention Thome you have to mention Javy Lopez because he has better numbers...

In comparison Thome has 553 ABs and 151 games. Plus Javy is a catcher, and by the way, Javy tied the ML record most HRs by a catcher in a season tonight.

Again, how does Bonds win it hands down? 87 RBI?

He is walked everytime someone is in scoring position. I'm sure he would love for you to figure out how to get an RBI out of that.

 

[Steve_Tk]

Congrats to Maddux on his 15th win. He could only pitch for 5 innings after the line drive to his ankle, but only needed ~45 pitches (don't remember the number) and only gave up 1 hit.

 

[Patrick Sun]

Hooray for Maddux. Now Bobby Cox doesn't have to start him this next week if he wants to set his rotation a different way.

 

[Patrick Larkin]

Take Lopez out of the Braves, the Braves still win.
Take Thome off the Phils, they are battling the Mets for last place.

Bonds is a legitamate MVP, don't get me wrong. But if you are looking at numbers, as they mostly always do, then Bonds doesn't measure up to Pujols. And Bonds hasn't even played in as many games as the others...

 

[KurtW]

If you want to compare sheer numbers, then A-Rod is the reigning AL MVP 3 years running. Unfortunatley, it don't work that way (allthough I wish it did).

Bonds IS the Giants. Without him, they're the Padres, with a little better pitching. Same thing with Pujols. Take him away, and the Cardinals are under .500 and Tony LaRussa's job is in jeopardy. But EVERYONE in the know agrees that Bonds is just on another plane of existence. He's the best player any of us will likely ever see, and this season's been no different. How many games has he won by himself?

Not taking anything away from Pujols (who's amazing), Thome, Javy Lopez (allthough the same case can be made for Marcus Giles and Gary Sheffield), but I don't see how you can not pick Bonds.

I guess we'll have to see where the Giants end up come November.

 

[Kirk Tsai]

The argument against Bonds is he hasn't played enough. It's clear that Bonds does the most damage per game. But I think it is a legitimate argument between Pujols and Bonds. Bonds has played 124 games with an 1.289 OPS; Pujols is at 1.122 and 152 games. That's a lot of games in difference. When people argue the superiority of Clemens over Maddux, they consider that Clemens has pitched more innings, and his slight inferority in ERA is not as big a factor if he can be more of a workhorse. By the best player argument, Bonds could have a godly OPS and play only half the games, and still win.

I don't see Thome being in the race with these two, despite their wild card contender status. My list:

1. Pujols
2. Bonds
3. Lopez (a tremendous season with one of the most important and punishing positions)
4. Thome
5. Gagne

Prior just pitched another great game. The NL Cy Young is too close to call, with Prior Schmidt, and Gagne. Pedro's late, strong run, and best ERA in the league could have just edged him over Loaiza, Hudson, Mussina, and Halladay.

 

[Steve_Tk]

I wish they wouldn't even look at the wins and losses number for pitchers. That means almost nothing. You could have a 2 ERA on the dodgers team and have a W/L record of 8-12. I just get tired of ESPN guys saying "but he has 20 wins". So what, Russ Ortiz almost has a 4 ERA and he has 20 wins, doesn't mean he should be looked at for the Cy Young. Just mindless rambling here.

 

[Phil L]

When people argue the superiority of Clemens over Maddux, they consider that Clemens has pitched more innings, and his slight inferority in ERA is not as big a factor if he can be more of a workhorse.

In that, you have to consider that Maddux has had vastly better defense behind him.

 

[Patrick Sun]

Hey, remember all those errors by Chipper when he was at 3rd?

Then again, Maddux helps himself out (winning all those Gold Gloves isn't a fluke)

 

[Steve_Tk]

You can't really compare Clemens and Maddux. Clemens strikes people out. Maddux pitched 5 innings and didn't get a single strike out or walk. They are totally opposite.

But no one would ever convince me that Clemens is a better pitcher than Maddux.

 

[Jason Seaver]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1619519

If a Montreal baseball fan were to assassinate Bud Selig, I don't think a jury in the world would convict him.

Not suggesting anything... Just sayin'.

You can't really compare Clemens and Maddux. Clemens strikes people out. Maddux pitched 5 innings and didn't get a single strike out or walk. They are totally opposite.

But no one would ever convince me that Clemens is a better pitcher than Maddux.

Well, you go by that, and you can't compare anyone to Tim Wakefield right now. Just too different.

But pointing out the low walk rate is worth considering. DIPS theory says that once you get past walks, strikeouts, and homeruns, a pitcher has little control of whether or not a hitter reaches base off a ball in play. So some great pitchers excel by reducing walks (Maddux, David Wells), others by not letting the hitter get a bat on the ball (Clemens), and some manage to do both (Pedro). How well they prevent baserunners, and therefore runs, is pretty comparable.

 

[Phil L]

There have been several interesting articles comparing clemens and maddux focusing on DIPS and DIFF and clemens has always come out on top.

You'll never convince me that Maddux is a better pitcher than Clemens To each his own but I have to add that Maddux has never consistantly had the challenge of facing a 9 *hitter* line up.

 

[Patrick Sun]

But Clemens never had to subject himself to brushback pitches either (on a regular basis, playing in the AL)...

 

[Steve_Tk]

The cubs could easily win the wildcard this week if they play well. The phillies have to play atlanta and florida this week and flordia doesn't have an easy schedule either. Plus the astros are playing san fran who really wants to get home field advantage. Good last week of baseball.

 

[Phil L]

But Clemens never had to subject himself to brushback pitches either (on a regular basis, playing in the AL)...

Yes, but in comparison, neither has Maddux. Maddux isn't really known for throwing inside or hitting guys.

Besides, Clemens can take a few HBPs, he's huge, they'll just bounce of him.

Honestly when Estes missed him, Clemens seemed pissed that he missed. Clemens wanted to get hit and put the Piazza thing in the past but Estes couldn't even hit him.

 

[Mark Zimmer]

I could see the NL MVP going to either Bonds or Pujols....neither result would astonish or upset me. But I think that the voters may think that Pujols has many, many MVPs ahead of him and so give it to Bonds one last time--a show of respect to the most feared hitter on the planet. Especially with everything going on with his father, etc., he's had a hell of a year.

But then I think Scott Podsednik should get the NL ROY.

I think Halladay's a shoo-in for AL Cy Young if he doesn't implode next week. NL is tougher, but I'd have to go Jason Schmidt there. Prior's close, though.

AL MVP I think it's finally Rodriguez's year, mainly because there's no obvious candidate from one of the winning teams that has been completely dominant. AL ROY I'd vote Berroa--the Royals would never have been in contention without him. So much for good-field/no-hit.

 

[Phil L]

AL ROY I'd vote Berroa

It will be Matsui. It should by Jody Gerut.