2003-2004 NFL Season (Playoffs and coaching moves) (1 Viewer)

[Patrick Sun]

The Tuna is going to have to dust off some "Statue of Liberty" plays for Vinnie.

 

[Lew Crippen]

The Tuna is going to have to dust off some "Statue of Liberty" plays for Vinnie.

Vinnie is old enough that he no doubt thinks that is one of the new plays.

 

[Dome Vongvises]

My knowledge of football ain't that great, but didn't Vinny only have two good years? I have no clue why people go ga-ga over him when he's freakin' old and terrible.

Veteran leadership my ass. It's like when teams sign veteran players like Ty Detmer and Kordell Stewart for their experience. What experience? How to suck?

Sorry about the rant, but that's just one of my pet peeves with front offices that hire people who never really had a prime to begin with. There are other idiotic decisions too like Ray Lucas, Brian Griese, etc. etc.

 

[Lew Crippen]

My knowledge of football ain't that great, but didn't Vinny only have two good years? I have no clue why people go ga-ga over him when he's freakin' old and terrible.

Who knows if this is good or bad—but some background. Vinnie was supposedly brought to Dallas to serve as the veteran backup to Quincy Carter (and perhaps to push him a bit more than the guys who had not played a down).

NFL people talk about players that coaches like Parcells, Lombardi and so forth often choose—in this case the words are: ‘a Parcells kind of guy (or player)’. It is hard to know exactly what this means, but it is taken to mostly mean a guy who works hard, is always prepared, does not make mental (or physical) mistakes, and puts the team above himself.

Carter was not considered to be a Parcells kind of guy. Vinnie Testaverde is thought to be the quintessential Parcells guy.

You are correct in that Testaverde has had an variable career. But his first several (5 or 6) years were with the then abysmal Tampa Bay Buccaneers. He had some OK, if not great years with the Browns and the Ravens. But when he was traded to the Jets (the year after Parcells arrived, I think) he had an absolutely outstanding season with a rating of over 100. Is Parcells guilty as you charge? Maybe or maybe not, but for sure he knows what he is getting—and while his judgment may be clouded by that great year, I expect that his judgment in matters of this kind are not sentimental.

BTW, he only played in seven games last year and had 123 completions out of 198 attempts for a 56% average. 7 TDs and only 2 interceptions. Rating of over 90. All in all not too bad for an old guy.

Apparently his arm is still good—the question is his ability to avoid the rush and hits—and to not wind up injured when he is hit.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

Dome, judge for yourself...

Vinny Testaverde

Veteran leadership my ass. It's like when teams sign veteran players like Ty Detmer and Kordell Stewart for their experience. What experience? How to suck?

Sorry about the rant, but that's just one of my pet peeves with front offices that hire people who never really had a prime to begin with. There are other
idiotic decisions too like Ray Lucas, Brian Griese, etc. etc.

I think I see your point, but the NFL personel might look at this a different way. They say to themselves, I'd rather have a third string QB with some NFL experience than some rookie that's never taken a snap. Heck, Rick Mierer is no great QB, but I was glad to have him when both Gannon and Tuiasosopo went down for the season last year, because he might not be worthy of starting in the league on opening day, he's a lot better than what they might have had if they went the rookie rout, and he actually didn't fair too bad for us.
Plus, signing guys for experience doesn't just apply to QB's, if you're going to single out that, its not really representative of that strategy as a whole. How much better for example are some of the Raider defensive backs because they got to play along side and learn from Rod Woodson? There are countless examples of this one, so it goes both ways.

 

[Dome Vongvises]

Thanks Casey. Discounting the Tampa years, I'm still not convinced two great years should account for much.

Plus, signing guys for experience doesn't just apply to QB's, if you're going to single out that, its not really representative of that strategy as a whole. How much better for example are some of the Raider defensive backs because they got to play along side and learn from Rod Woodson? There are countless examples of this one, so it goes both ways.

You're right that it doesn't, and I like the Rod Woodson example. I only used quarterbacks as it is the most visible example of where so-called veteran experience is supposed to payoff, the pertinent point being that some of these guys (Ty Detmer for example) were never good to begin with so any experience they have isn't worth it. That's my point with Vinny at least. I don't think he's that good at all. What is he gonna do, tell Drew to sit his ass in the pocket and get sacked?

Of course, my stragety is to throw youngin's to the flame and let them learn the hard way. Given that the WR corp is somewhat decent (not a KJ fan), I don't think you're going to see Vinny throwing any quick strike longbombs on PA's. Otherwise, the only lesson Drew is going to learn from standing by on the sidelines is what a 40 year old looks like getting sacked cause he's waiting for his receivers to get open. Not sold on Bryant and Glenn either.

Other notables who just plain suck, but get signed for some reason.

Jeff George (not lately, but man I hate this guy)
Chris Chandler

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Other notables who just plain suck, but get signed for some reason.

Jeff George (not lately, but man I hate this guy)
Chris Chandler

Jeff George had a tremendous amount of talent -- he just had nothing between the ears. Put Rodney Peete's head on George's body, and you have created a Hall of Fame quarterback.

Chris Mortenson was reporting on SportsCenter this evening that Tampa and Denver were the two teams most interested in signing Tim Brown. The Bucs are trying to protect against a McCardell holdout (plus Gruden is familiar with Brown), while Denver is thin at wideout with McCaffrey retiring and Rod Smith fighting injuries the past few seasons. How much would Raider fans hate to see Tim Brown in a Bronco uniform?

There was also speculation that Arizona, Jacksonville or Baltimore may be interested in Quincy Carter once he clears waivers. I cannot see any team touching him with these cocaine rumors flying around.

 

[Shane Martin]

Given that the WR corp is somewhat decent (not a KJ fan), I don't think you're going to see Vinny throwing any quick strike longbombs on PA's.

That isn't his game though. They will be more mid range stuff. Ball control offense. With their defense still 99.9% intact with only a weak corner situation, they are in pretty solid shape. One touchdown more a game would be HUGE for the Cowboys if they can improve that much.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

Jeff George

yeah his 2 years in Oakland were 2 more than I would've liked...

But the thing about George is that people like his big time arm, but as many scouts have said, he'll have a big arm til he's 60 but he'll never grow up.

You know, if Tim Brown signed with the Broncos, I like the guy so much I could forgive him for doing it.

Dome, the throw youngin's to the fire is an interesting strategy and one held by a lot of teams, but I think there is something to be said for letting a QB sit. Steve McNaire sat, Chad Pennington sat, and Donte Colepepper sat as well, and it worked. Peyton Manning started right away and while he had a tough rookie year it seems to have helped in the long run. I am curious to see how Carson Palmer does for the Bengals, who traditionally threw young QB's in to the fire, David Klingler and Akili Smith both burned up and flamed out. Palmer sat for a year and they expect ig things, although in fairness Smith had one or so good years in college, and Klingler put up big college numbers in the run and shoot offense which doesn't really work in the NFL. So, part of it for them was bad drafting of those QB's in the first place, although I thought Smith might have been something if he had gotten in camp on time as a rookie and had a chance to sit and learn, he was a good enough athlete, but still he couldn't put it together and that's why he's not one of those guys kicking around some team's roster.

Chris Chandler had a good year in 1998 and while he hasn't put up big numbers he's been productive in the league, and when you're a team looking for a third string guy or veteran insurance, that's not usually a role that a guy like a Kerry Collins for example would want. Collins took the backup job in Oakland, but knows that he will be the starter in 2005 in all likelyhood.

 

[Shane Martin]

Collins took the backup job in Oakland, but knows that he will be the starter in 2005 in all likelyhood.

Or knows that Gannon is getting older and more suspect to injury so his chances of playing this year could be quite good.

 

[Lew Crippen]

Of course, my stragety is to throw youngin's to the flame and let them learn the hard way.

I think that any strategy has to be tempered with the strength of the club and what they are trying to accomplish in any given year.

In the case of Dallas, if they look at this as a rebuilding year, then get Henson and Romo some significant playing time. It they expect to return to the playoffs, that approach would be foolhardy, especially in the first few weeks of the season.

Even though many people here think that the Cowboys could be improved over last year and still lose more games, it might seem best to put in the rookies. But in Dallas (especially after last year), for Parcells and Jones to be seen as giving up on the season at the first week, would be viewed very harshly.

Therefore Testaverde will start. That does not mean he will finish. Besides the obvious case of an injury, playing poorly will get one of the other guys in, or if the team sinks out of playoff contention, then I’d expect to see one or the other (or both) get a lot of playing time—to include starting.

 

[Shane Martin]

It they expect to return to the playoffs, that approach would be foolhardy, especially in the first few weeks of the season

It would be foolhardy to think they don't expect to be in the playoffs this year. ALot of the success or lack thereof by the Cowboys will be dependent on their Line and their running backs. Allen is said to be in the best shape and moving around very nicely and Adams is a pro bowler looking to improve. The other guys should be good enough but we'll find out. I personally am expecting no worse than 8-8 and no better than 11-5.

 

[CalvinCarr]

That's what we are all hoping from Byron Leftwich in Jacksonville. I think we have a team that should win the division.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

Calvin,
I'd go with COULD over SHOULD. The Colts didn't get worse, and were likely the second best team in football last year. The Titans were probably the third best team, but they did get quite a bit worse. The Texans got better as well. Frankly, the AFC South is a rather brutal division now.

The only teams that I feel are "shoulds" are NE, IND, Seattle (and MAYBE KC).

After that, it's fair game, and I guarantee at least one of those teams (of the 4 I mentioned) fails to make the playoffs. That is parity.

I love it,
Chuck

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

quote:

Collins took the backup job in Oakland, but knows that he will be the starter in 2005 in all likelyhood.

Because this is the NFL, this could be true of any starter in the league, and have nothing to do with age. I mean, Rich Gannon is more durable than Jake Plummer who is 10 years his junior. Collins also could've stayed in New York and probably started the season at QB. In reality, with the possible acception of Bret Favre and perhaps Peyton Manning and Tom Brady I'd say that most team's backups expect to see some playing time this season. Though actually, if Brady were to go down for any length of time, I'd say New England would be in more trouble than most teams that lose a starter. Not as much as if Manning went down though, I don't even know who the backup is in Indianapolis.

I think though that a chance of injury probably doesn't figure too highly in to the decision making process when it comes to finding a new team, because really anyone could get hurt. Even all the Cowboys fans have to admit that the chances are better than 50/50 that Vinny's going to get hurt this season. He's another one of those fragile guys, and with Carter gone they can ill afford for Vinny to miss any major time. A source said the other day that if they had known then what they know now that Dallas would've gone after Collins harder this offseason. Of course, they didn't know that, and how can you really, I guess a team just has to prepare for the worst, few is the number of QB's that take every snap in a season for their team which is why a backup is so important. Hell, Gannon didn't miss a game in 4 years before his shoulder injury last season, and so having a proven backup was not as high of a priority because they mistakenly expected he'd be healthy. Now in fairness Tuiasosopo got hurt before he could show whether or not he was capable.

I expect that if Gannon starts the year, that eventually either because of injury or poor play that I will see Collins on the field. I'm just happy that this year if Gannon goes down, that its freakin Kerry Collins that we're bringing off the bench.

 

[Shane Martin]

I'd actually put a should behind the Eagles. They signed the Freak and T.O, and they're talking superbowl again, so I think for them not to at least win there division would be a shock.

Losing the division would be a shock. Losing in the NFC championship game, would NOT be a shock except to their team.

New England is clearly the favorite to win a superbowl this year again. They didn't lose anyone they were worried about(except Woody), and gained SO MUCH more. They maybe actually better.

 

[Casey Trowbridg]

NFLPA to file Carter Grievance

So it begins. Interesting that the Vikings had thoughts of signing him.

 

[Shane Martin]

Do the teams have to say "We released so and so because...". The Cowboys didn't say so its all speculation on why they released him and everything else surrounding it.

 

[Lew Crippen]

So it begins. Interesting that the Vikings had thoughts of signing him.

Now this could be interesting. In theory, the Cowboys can’t have known that Carter was in the drug treatment program or that he failed either a first or second test.

All of that is supposed to be confidential. Even from the player’s club.

And clubs are not allowed to carry out their own tests, so in theory.

As the story indicates, the union would need to prove that the Cowboys either conducted their own tests or that someone within the drug treatment program had tipped them off.

And then they would need to prove that not only did the Cowboys know about Carter’s recent drug test failure, but that cutting him was a result of that failure. Of course if they can prove that the Cowboys conducted drug tests on their own, they would have a case on that issue.

I think that this will be hard to prove. Speculation by unnamed, former players won’t do the trick.

Worst yet for the union to get the Cowboys, Carter’s drug test failure (all assuming that he did fail a test) will have to come out.

And Shane is correct. Jerry Jones and Bill Parcells have pointedly not given any reason for cutting Carter. They are not required to give a reason.

 

[Kevin Alexander]

Everywhere I look on the net for Quincy Carter news, all I see and hear is extremely harsh criticism. There are lots of players that have gone through (and currently in) the NFL Substance abuse program - names that you'd be surprised at, and names that you'd be not-so-surprised at. Why all of this criticism of Quincy?

I don't recall the same criticism of Brett Favre's or Kerry Collins' alcohol problem. It was barely covered in the news, and even when it was, there was a "tone" of sympathy and support for their situation. As more facts come out in all of this, there are now reports that Quincy was in fact truthful in that he is NOT a cocaine user as has been widely reported, and was NOT tested as being positive for cocaine - maybe marijuana, but NOT cocaine.

Every no-name sportswriter wannabe seems to be coming out of the woodwork and getting on their soapbox about how big of a "looser" QC is for squandering his opportunities. In actuality, what all of this seems to be shaping up as is a cold hard reality check of the "business" of professional sports - no guarantees, no loyalty - just business. As a hardcore Cowboy fan, I must say that I'm disappointed at the way the Cowboy organization released Quincy. It is all very hypocritical on the part of Parcells and Jerry Jones who was alleged to have tried to protect Leon Lett who was smokin' and snortin' everything he could get his hands on - and let's not even mention Michael Irvin. And there's Parcells toleration of Lawrence Taylor (an admitted crack fiend) who's by many accounts is an NFL celebrity. Do you really think that LT is clean now?????? If you do, you're probably firing it up too.

And as far as Quincy's QB skills go, people like to jump on his TD/INT ratio as evidence of a lackluster QB. Compare Quincy's stats w/ Jake Plummer's stats and you'll be shocked. In his first 4 years in the league, Jake Plummer averaged more than 20 INTs a season, but he signs a big contract w/ Denver....go figure. Quincy's stats are better, but Jake Plummer has been compared to Joe Montana. What's up w/ that? Deion Sanders jokingly said on a morning sports radio show here in Atlanta yesterday that when the Cowboys played the Cardinals, he would personally send a limousine to Jake Plummer's house for him to be picked up for the game because he was guaranteed to throw an interception in Deion's direction.

In my opinion, Quincy made alot of improvement, but he was not the long term solution in Dallas. But guess what? Vinnie T. is not even a short term solution. IMO, Parcells and Jones really put themselves in a terrible situation. If the Cowboys come up anywhere short of the playoffs, there will be no one to blame but themselves. Honestly, they've ruined the season for me. I now find myself being a staunch Cowboy fan, but eerily wanting Parcells and Jones to be embarrased for the way Carter was dealt.