Session Start: Wed Mar 29 19:57:52 2000 Subject: Live Chat with Van Ling Date: March 29, 2000 This may not be copied or distributed without permission of HOME THEATER FORUM http://www.hometheaterforum.com At this time, I'd like to welcome VAN LING to Home Theater Forum Thanks for having me in the digital ether... I am going to open up the floor to questions. I just wanted to double check about the upcoming T2 SE dvd we were discussing earlier. What details can you give us, specifically the possible form (2 disc/DVD 18) and if DTS will be inclusive. Wasn't sure what was confirmed- figured direct from you would be a good source... Okay, it's going to be a DVD-18 per Artisan's decision We are hoping to fit BOTH a DTS and a DD5.1 on the same side, but that's pending our quality tests. Will you be doing another text commentary for T2:SE? The one you did for the Abyss was very informative, not to mention hilliarious. I certainly plan to do a text commentary for T2. It was fun on THE ABYSS, although a pain to write... I'm glad to see that people liked the humor. It can get really dry otherwise. Pardon the pun. my question is about the abyss dvd, I heard some people finding some terminator trailers hidden on the disc? is this true? No, there are no Terminator or T2 trailers on the discs, only Fox titles. Studios don't see the value in promoting other studios. In fact, we talked about putting a "James Cameron's Titanic Explorer" demo on the DVD-ROM portion, but it got nixed I think because the studio didn't have the domestic rights to the film, so only Paramount would have benefitted, even though Fox Interactive put out the CD-ROM disc.. What about Terminator? You guys ever going to make it in stereo or surround? Yes, MGM is working on a multichannel mix of Terminator from the original elements with Lightstorm's approval, of course.. cool. I have been waiting for that one. We actually have to remix all the music as well, since it was mono... I wanted to say thank you very much for doin the abyss dvd. it;s my favorite movie of all time.even better then titanic. Thanks for your kind words, Jacob. It, like the film, was a struggle. the only thing that I found missing on the abyss dvd. was maybe the stuff that Cameron did on the scifi channel would of been on the DVD. I actually did not see any of the SciFi Channel material, so I was not aware of it. Are you working on anything besides T2:SE? I'm working on The Terminator for MGM as well, and I also just finished doing some really cool menus for ID4. I'm also keeping my hand in VFX and am doing a few shots for some smaller features coming out later this year. Thanks... Earlier you mentioned it was a 'struggle' was this just because of the massive scope of the disc or were there anything that had to be overcome? Also how expensive can a disc this big be to produce? It was a struggle to make the ABYSS DVD because we had shortsightedly built the whole supplement to D2, which is composite. It looked terrible. The film was D1 component, so that was good, but the rest of it had to be redone. I also was only 65% happy with the laserdisc, as its production was marred by a host of factors back in 1992-93. Even though Fox didn't really expect me to create what I did, I have to give them credit for rolling with it for the DVD. I'm about 95% happy with the DVD version, since I got to go back and rewrite all of my text and make it look better than the black text on white that was on the LD. I also got to add back in a lot of things that were dropped from the LD for online and deadline reasons. Ahhh.. ok. It seems it was such am abitious undertaking, I hope you get to make many more dvds at this level.. I LOVE the Abyss DVD. Best SE yet...thanks. Regarding the "Swelltone" logo that you designed: will we be seeing it on more DVDs, or was it just meant as a sort of inside joke an Video Essentials? Glad you like the disc, Robert. The Swelltone logo is a running gag/cause maintained by sound designer/guru Larry Blake. I think it's supposed to be on a few other titles, including some of Artisan's DVDs, since Larry has done some work for them. The Limey, maybe? long time no see. is there plans to release a pan and scann of the abyss on dvd? some people prefer the pan and scann version of the abyss. I doubt there will be a Pan&Scan of THE ABYSS, but you never know. I think Jim's letter "The Letterbox Heresies" may have confused a lot of people! When dvd's first came out I heard talk of R rated dvd's with PG alternate soundtracks. Do you know of any upcoming dvd's considering this? This would use the same seamless branching feature as I've been using to do Special Editions on DVD, but I don't know if anyone has actually done it yet. A straight audio track substitution would be relatively easy if it's the same length, but usually an R- to PG-rating edit will need to change the picture and timing as well. Most filmmakers don't really go for this, naturally. Speaking of ID4........Have you heard a time table on its release? That is if you can say. We have been hearing about this one for some time. ID4 I think is streeting some time in June. It's being authored at DVCC now. It should be pretty cool. Anamorphic, seamless branching for 2 versions of the film, etc. I have the exact date...All I can say, it is June. Not sure if Fox wants it broadcast yet What sort of timeframe do you work around when preparing an SE release? It depends upon the title, really. I obviously want as much time as possible, especially since I both do the supplements, prepare the multistory work AND create the menus. Too bad Morgan Holly just bailed. I was going to thank him for his work at Criterion... He had a MEN IN BLACK emergency, Van He's doing MIB? Cool. I worked on that film, doing some audio stuff. On The Abyss can you tell us what went into the creation of the 5.1 sound on this dvd? It was an incredible sounding DVD. The channel separation between the speakers and the subwoofer effects were outstanding. It has to rank up there as one of the all time best on DVD. thanks Glad you liked the audio on the ABYSS, Jim. The nice folks at Complete Sound did the encode work. It was a big challenge because there was a Special Edition mix from 1992 and a theatrical mix from 1989 that had to be cut together. The theatrical mix from 1989 was from a 70mm baby boom, so it had mono surrounds, I think. But due to the seamless branching, you are only seeing about 30minutes of thetheatrical mix when you watch that version on DVD. All of the common segments are from the SE version, which I think had some separation attempted in the surrounds. first of all Van, thank you for coming... i know someone already asked about other work you are currently working on, but could you mention any projects that are still off in the future or maybe still on the "drawing board"?? I can't really speculate on future projects, since the current ones are taking up my time. I also think that there are very few studios who really want to go as far as I do in doing DVDs. that's too bad for all of us that they don't There are a lot of good DVD producers out there, but they all have to toe the bottom line at some point, unless they're willing to basically do the "above and beyond" work for free. Please forgive me if this was previously asked. Can we expect DTS support from FOX on future titles? Specificly on T2. -done T2 is not a Fox title. Artisan is releasing T2, and yes, we are hoping to have DTS on it. oops..sorry...thanks :) What film would you consider your "dream project" if you were given the chance to do a full-blown SE release, and why? Probably the Star Wars Trilogy, for obvious reasons. That's true for most of us as viewers too.... you mention that you are working on the first Terminator movie. can you give us a preview what to expect? I remember the movie being in mono.. that is not important to me as others think it is. I can't really go into detail on Terminator yet, but I can say that one of the main points is doing a new mix. Any reason in particular why a 'full frame' 4:3 version of the ABYSS wasn't included with the DVD release? Just curious. Mostly because we already filled the disc to the brim and it would have taken another complete disc to do the P&S version in seamless branching. And I don't think Fox or Lightstorm felt there was a need to do it in P&S, since DVD has better resolution. In your experience, are filmmakers now considering elements for DVD while in production on their films? Yes, in a way... I hear directors joking about who they'll skewer in a commentary if they have a bad day on the set! ;-) Seriously, I think that it should be in the back of their minds, but not a constant thing, because the idea of always having "another chance" in your back pocket can hurt the creative process. The studios are certainly trying to account for these ancillary" markets by writing the cast and crew contracts to cover doc footage and so forth. Prior to this, we had to get signed releases from everybody before we could include things that weren't the movie itself. It seems that James Cameron took quite an active interest in the creation of The Abyss SE DVD/LD; have Devlin/Emmerich taken a similar interest in the upcoming ID4 SE? Roland and Dean are heavily into finishing their next feature, THE PATRIOT, so I haven't had any contact with them per se, but I have been in constant contact with Centropolis. They've kept Dean and Roland in the loop on my work for ID4. Same with Jim Cameron. Lightstorm has been keeping Jim approsed on my work on his films. Jim doesn't generally get heavily involved in the LDs and DVD if he has someone he trusts. [21:02] THat is not to say he doesn't care. He cares enough to have me do these things and supports my efforts by helping to clear the way if there's a problem. That's why he's a good producer. I know you worked on Video Essentials (from what I understand you did mostly visuals/packaging)- do you know of any plans to do a new version of VE with expanded audio tests? It seems to me that other test discs are overshadowing VE and wondered if there are plans to do another edition. Joe Kane is hard at work now on a new Digital Video Essentials disc, and I'm looking forward to working with him on it. Any deatils you could share? Joe's a great guy and he really cares about the technology and the industry, so he keeps revising and updating his ideas for the next disc as the technology changes. Apart from that, I can't speculate. But it will be another standards'bearing disc, to be sure. I really like the animated menus on Abyss. I think they are thoughtfully arranged and provide easy access to the multitude of extras. The 3D recreation of the Benthic Explorer was superb. Will the T2 menus have a similar "3D" feel to them? Actually the 3D recreation was of Deepcore, but thanks for the compliment. Yes, I'm planning on doing something similar on T2, and I already have done something similar on ID4. Many of us are confused by Paramount's less-than-enthusiastic support of the DVD format. Can you provide any insights? I have not worked with Paramount at all on any of their titles, but I hope that the fact that Bryan Ellenburg, formerly of Artisan, is working with them will get them to do some great stuff. I recall trying to get some Paramount titles going back in the LD days, but there was a strange policy that came down from one of the higher-ups that decreed that nothing could be put on laserdisc that couldn't also be put on VHS. This of course means no taking advantage of the unique capabilites of the format! Hopefully, things have changed or are changing over there. Wow. Well it's the 21st century, maybe things will change. Do you know if a high definition master exists for THE ABYSS for broadcast or future home formats? I don't know the answer to that, but I don't think there is. It would have to be approved by Jim Cameron and Lightstorm, and if there were, we would have used it for the DVD, I'd like to think! I've gotten here late, and I'm sure this has already been covered--but I don't (can't) wait for the transcript: Is there any word on a release date (or a release month) for the T2: Special Edition? This is probably the one DVD I'm anticipating most this year. Thank you. I can't speculate on a release date per se; from my standpoint, getting it done right is more important than hitting a street date. Marketing people hate me for this, of course! Later this year is all I can say right now. Whose idea was it to market Banned From the Ranch diapers? (and are they one-size-fits-all? :) ) Boy, someone really did look at that web page! We actually had some cloth diapers made for some friends of Casey Cannon and myself who had just had a kid, and then thought, why not? I was pushing for a marketing line for the diapers that said "BFTR diapers: we'll take your director's sh*t and cover his ass". Noticed that the Abyss transfer was THX certtified years back- and the new transfer was "resubmitted" to THX for certification. Just wondering if THX made any requests for changes or anything? Also, when working with THX have you heard anything about if they would refuse to certify titles that were 16x9 enhanced? As far as I know, THX would not reject a title because it was anamorphic. Their job is to try to maintain the quality of the elements they are presented with, and to push for good elemenets in the first place. We had them re-certify THE ABYSS because this time it was the process of going from D1 master to DVD that was important, not just the transfer itself. The only thing I can think of was some more dirt fixes that were done. Van Ling. people have report having problems with the abyss dvd and dvd 18 with first generation dvd players.there is alot of reports on the forum. I'm actually surprised there haven't been MORE problems in the sense that I was pushing to do more with the format, rather than limit myself because of potential player bugs on older equipment. I'm a firm believer in putting more on a disc than can be accessed on all players, as a way to get people to trade up to better ones. Sorry for another question on the T2:SE. Hope it hasn't been asked yet. Will it be a DVD-18 release, or will it be 2 separate discs like the Abyss? Personally, I would prefer two separate discs. Thank you. It will be a DVD-18, per Artisan. I actually had a conversation on the pros and cons of 18 vs. two 9s, and my main question was: does the DVD spec allow you to have menu control across several discs if you put them all into one multi-DVD player? I was told that the DVD spec did not allow for that, so from the creative standpoint it did not matter if it was an 18 or two 9s. I can understand that people might want two 9s in case one is defective, though. By the way, I have to point out the two people who really helped me make the ABYSS disc what it is: my video editor Lauryl Duplechan and my digital artist Johnathan Banta. Johnny and I did all of the menus and 3d work ourselves, and Lauryl helped me keep track of all of the branch points and supplemental material on the Avid. All on Macintoshes Since they're suckers for punishment, they've been working with me on ID4 and T2 as well. Thanks for joining us tonight. Do you have any info on Boys Don't Cry on dvd and what extras it might include? No idea on that title, sorry. Hi there: I live in Brazil and I have both LD Special Editions: T2 and the Abyss. Awsome work! Will the T2SE on DVD feature the same commentary track as on the LD? Also: does the Abyss DVD feature that great text by Cameron about the reasons behind the restoration of the film? It was printed on a nice folder found inside the LD box, remember? A great lesson about editing.... Hi, Christiano! The T2 DVD will have the same commentary, plus a text one as well. Cool. And how about that text on the Abyss? The ABYSS DVD does include the Cameron text about the restoration, but it's on the disc rather than in the packaging. Now I remember my question. I remember James Cameron releasing a book on Titanic and T2.. what about The Abyss? I would buy that book in a heartbeat.it was screenplay and notes.. something like that. pass it on to him. [21:38] I don't think there's going to be an ABYSS book like that... That's why I did the LD and DVD like I did. I wrote the annotations and compiled the screenplay book for T2 back in 1992. It came out from a publisher called Applause Books. Last question on T2, and then I'll shut up, I swear! :) As a "closet" Guns N' Roses fan, I have to ask if the video for "You Could Be Mine" will be included. I think I read somewhere (dvdreview.com?) that it will, just wanted to make sure. Thanks again! I'll pass it on to the legal clearance folks at Artisan... Thanks for taking the time to talk tonight. Are there any trends or new developments you forsee for DVD in the next year or two? Good question. Progressive scan players? True digital format instead of analog? We'll see, I guess. Personally, I'm just hoping for the ability to have more people have better, newer players so I don't have to keep watering down the work in order to accommodate lower-end equipment. Obviously, every disc should be able to play on every player, but that doesn't mean you can't create a disc that gives you more or better stuff as you get better players. When I purchased my DVD player long ago, I promised myself that I wouldn't replace and movies I already owned on LD with DVDs because it would be too expensive. However, if you keep putting out these exceptional DVDs, I'll gladly go broke buying them. Just wanted to say thanks for all your hard work. Also, thanks for chatting with us. Thanks for the kind words, Robert! My favorite item on The Abyss dvd is the text commentary. I learned alot about the movie, even those I have seen it a zillion times. what is your favorite itlem on the abyss dvd? That's like asking which child is the favorite, Jacob! I like the added timelapse segment, which I always wanted to put in, but I think the centerpiece of the disc really is the UNDER PRESSURE documentary. I think a lot of people will agree that this is a really great piece. It was written and directed by Ed W. Marsh, who was the video editor and tap/playback guy on the ABYSS set. too bad that Mary didn't join the doc. Ed's a great guy, and he is also responsible for all of the newscasts seen in ID4, and the Making of T2, along with Lincoln Hiatt on the formar and David G. Hudson on the latter. Ed W, Marsh I mean. Actually, Mary Elizabeth's absence was participation in a way. She was living in England and was raising her kids back when we did UNDER PRESSURE, so she couldn't make it to LA. I won't speculate on any other reasons. She was very gracious about signing the releases for it, though. T2 SE is a fairly long film, and with a DD 5.1, commentary track and (possibly) a DTS soundtrack, it sounds like it could be a tight squeeze fitting it all onto one side of a DVD-18. Do you anticipate any difficulties fitting it all in? I'm glad to see someone's doing the math! Yes, we are doing compression tests right now to determine whether we can include all of the audio tracks we'd like and still have a great-looking picture. Lightstorm also insists on having a separate 2.0 LtRt mix on the disc as well, since they don't like the way a lot of players do the downconversion, so that adds another 192 kbps to the party... If Artisan and Lightstorm and THX aren't happy with the video compression when including all of these audio tracks, then we'll need to split it potentially into separate releases, like Saving Private Ryan. I have the Abyss DVD waiting for me at my dorm room when I get back from Spring Break, so I haven't had time to check it out yet. But I was wondering, from a complete newbie standpoint on the Abyss (I haven't seen the movie in six years, and I don't remember a thing from it) where should I start out on it? Standard edition, or director's cut edition? Watch the trailers, etc. If you want to check out the trailers first, then watch the Special Edition, that would be good. If you want to see it as if you were watching it in 1989, then watch the theatrical first. I always find it interesting to compare the 2 versions. The SE is truer to the original vision of course. Thank you for an excellent Abyss SE DVD! Who/what determines if a DVD release contains an isolated music score? Does the composer have any input? I would have loved to see this feature included on The Abyss or the upcoming ID4; Alan Silvestri has released alternate cues of his wonderful choral composition from The Abyss on promo CDs. A 2CD release of David Arnold's ID4 score was slated for release in late 1996 but never made it to market. In answer to your question, Velo, the studio makes a determination whether or not to put the isolated score on the DVD. This also has to do with what the deal was with the composer... ...as well as whether or not it conflicts with the sales of any record label that released the music CD. I actually asked about including the ABYSS soundtrack on the DVD, but I was told that Varese Sarabande would have been concerned that their CD sales might suffer. I also asked about including the alternate cues for the Drowning sequence and such, but legal was concerned about that, too. Just wanted to say that I enjoyed the text commentary...especially the humor (uh-oh)...... Thanks, Dwayne. Maybe it'll start a trend... I have only started diving through the Abyss....awesome. I would really be interested in a DVD on the making of the DVDs. I would love to see behind the scenes in the production of the disc, how you wokr out content, put it together and build the menus. I am completely blown away by the abyss... I think that would be a great idea, Jeff. But everyone produces DVDs differently. If you want to know more detail on the making of THE ABYSS disc, though, check out Guido Henkel's ABYSS Production Diary at www.dvdreview.com. We covered a lot of stuff in making the disc, and there's even some of my original menu sketches (!) so you can see where I started in my head and how it ended up on the final disc. I'm late to tonight's chat, sorry if this has already been asked, is there any favorite movie of yours, that isn't on DVD yet, that you'd like to see make it onto the format, perhaps something that you'd even like to have a hand in producing? Thanks for THE ABYSS and T2:SE! As I said before, there's always the DVD "holy grail" known as the Star Wars Trilogy... Buckaroo Banzai also comes to mind, now that you mention it. And thanks for the kind words, Peter. it would be great.. if you could do your magic on a Batman: Special Edition. What is the "swelltone" that you were talking about? on the abyss dvd . Jacob, the TV monitor seen in the Imaging Station is a "Swelltone" monitor... just an in-joke for Joe Kane, Larry Blake and the fans of Video Essentials... Van, I was wondering--besides all of the DVDs you've been involved with (and are currently working on), what are some other DVDs you've been impressed with? Thanks. Matt, knowing how these things have to get made, I'm impressed with any disc that is more than just the movie with a bunch of presskit stuff thrown in! ;-) Seriously, the Bug's Life Disc is great, as is Ghostbusters and a lot of the New Line stuff. It's great to see people taking chances and trying new things. I know that in a lot of those cases, it was the DVD producers who went all out on their end, because I have never seen anyone from a studio say "let's just make this DVD the greatest" It's not that the studios are evil per se; a lot of them don't know what's possible and a lot of them put so many discs through their pipeline that any one standout DVD holds up the process. Apart from a few people there who had seen my work, no one at Fox had any idea what they were getting into on THE ABYSS DVD. That said, they had the smarts to work with me on it rather than try to cut my work down. But I think it cost them a lot more than they had expected. Thanks Van, for the wonderful LD SEs you made of Jim's films (T2 and Abyss). I've been enjoying them for years. The first time I put my eyes over that huge amount of information on the T2 suplements, I felt like I had a huge multimidia encyclopaedia on cinema for me to research, study, specially about the american film industry, about the way epic films are made, all the logistics of production that can be found behind such a complex production like this one. It was like a revelation.... So, I can't wait to get the Abyss DVD on my hands! I hope it lasts as long as the LD has (BTW: what do you know about DVD deterioration?)... Sorry if I talk too much! ;-) Thanks again for the kind words. My whole goal in doing these discs the way I do is that I wanted to make a "film-school in a can". So it's always gratifying to see people view it that way, too. Which brings me to a point: One thing I noticed recently is that everything is considered a "special edition." I kind of think this devalues the term. Studios are even putting chapter stops down as a "Special Feature," on the justification that if it wasn't available on VHS, it's special. One last note to Cristiano: I hope you can get the ABYSS DVD in its domestic US version, because I'm not sure if all of the supplemental material will make it to the international version... I want the Region 1 disc. There's just too much to do multiple translations on. You referenced the Production Diary of The Abyss at DvdReview.com earlier, and I was wondering how long until we get a look at T2: SE. I remember there being a news item announcing the diary for T2 and a page has been made for it, but no actual information exists. I am very excited to see what you have in store for us on my favorite movie. There will be a production diary on T2, but it's still being worked on. Hopefully it will be up soon! ==== At this point, VAN asks the members for some input ==== Does anyone have any requests on the T2 disc? Any things, navigational, supplemental, whatever, that you'd like to see? I mentioned the "You Could Be Mine" video. . . I would request an Isolated Score, Brad Fiedel did a great job I think this would be a good forum topic! Get a hitlist of ideas you could mine. Let me see what I can do. The music video is a licensing cost issue, as is the score. A T-1000-like "morphing" from one screen to another might be cool If there's room and it can be cleared, I'd like to see that "Making of T3" special of Cameron's Universal Studios attraction, that aired on the Sci-Fi Channel a couple of years back... Mult-Angle special affect comparision type thingies. Will you put all those SFX chapters from the LD in a single documentary/suplement or will have then the way they are on the LD? I;m glad to see we think along the same lines! I have been working on getting that T23D featurette for the DVD; it's in legal's hands right now. I think a 'Futuristic Theme' for all the menu's would be cool, like taking place in the future, and if you chose another menu, the camera would kind of move around like you were running to hide in a bunker and have a Hunter-Killer shooting laser blasts at you The T23D was really cool. I would like to see that added too. To AndrewM: I think you'll be happy with the T2 menus... ==== Now Back To The Chat ==== I've come late to the chat so I hope I'm not repeating others but I was curious as to what projects you are/will be doing? Also who do you admire in your field? Who's work has influenced you most? I am currently working on both the T2 and T1 DVDs, I just finished ID4, and am also keeping my hand in feature film visual effects by doing a few shots on a number of small features. As for people I admire, there are a lot of DVD producers who are doing cool stuff. Laurent Bozereau, Morgan Holly, etc. were some of my early inspirations. They did some great stuff, but oftentimes they were outside of the production cycle itself, which meant that they didn't necessarily have access to some of the materials that were of interest. On the other hand, the production people and studios are too busy working on making the film that they don't generally have time to take a scholarly or fan overview of their work. On the discs I've worked on, I've tried to have it both ways. I did the "Field of Dreams" disc on LD back in 1996 with that approach. Any reason for me to keep my current T2 DVD? Or should I head on over to Ebay right now? :) I don't even want to watch it anymore-waiting for the SE. It may have collector's value as one of the first dual-layer DVDs. Your call... If someone wanted to get a favorite film handled properly by the studio for DVD, how should one go about it? Are you looking for outside projects to be involved in? Like a Zardoz SE? :) I think the best way to get the studios to do titles they way you want them is to offer your services, actually. Remember, they have scores of titles that they are working on, and they all don't get the attention they often deserve. This is simply because they have to say "We've got X budget to put out these 20 titles. How do we do it?" Everybody has different favorites, and everyone has different ideas on which to emphasize, if any. Will they actually hand off work to someone they don't know, if they look like they have a handle on what they are doing? They won't listen to people who come off as militants or fanatics, but they might listen to feedback from honest, reasonable fans, especially now that more people in the DVD industry are proponents of the format and its capabilities. You never know unless you try. At this time I'd like to thank Van Ling for spending his time with us this evening. It was a pleasure to meet you in person on Studio day, and Iam real honored you accepted our invite to this chat. Hope you had a good time. You are invited to stay and hang out, but I must get my beauty sleep :) Ron, you're getting old.... Cool. Thanks, Van. Thanks Ron for hosting the chat Thanks for inviting me to your party! I had a great time. Wow. Glad I came! :) Oh well, I guess I can read the transcript. Thanks for coming, Van Thank you Van for chatting here! Can't wait to pluck down the cash for the T2: SE! Finally I've met you, Van, after all these years! Thanks, man! I'll just say before I go- Abyss is the best DVD I own! Thanks Van. Thanks Van! It's great to know a true DVD fan is involved deeply in DVD production. Thanks for being here with us. Let's do this again sometime. We'll have you back for T2 Thanks alot Van! Keep up the great work! (Pete M Fitz puts down his spear, removes gun holster, takes off "Uncut PRESIDENT'S ANALYST ('67) DVD Now Or DIE!!!" t-shirt) please I agree with Fslove. We need more enthusiasts producing content for each other. Thanks to everyone for their kind words! I hope that the next few discs I work on are as well received. And I'd be glad to do this again. Session Close: Wed Mar 29 22:47:07 2000